An Intermarried Perspective On The Jew Within

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The Jew Within

Author: InterfaithFamily.com Editor (---.home.net)
Date: 01-11-01 13:06

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"encouraging" intermarriage

Author: Pwopy G. (---.new-york-06rh16rt-ny.dial-access.att.net)
Date: 01-26-01 11:43

I think Arnold Eisen has nothing to worry about in his exhortation that "that Jewish communal institutions should not encourage intermarriage." In fact, I'd like him to name a single Jewish institution on the planet that ENCOURAGES intermarriage...that tells its Jews to go out there and bag themselves a non-Jew! It simply doesn't happen. The real choice for these institutions is between DISCOURAGING intermarriage (which is what Eisen is really pushing for) or ACCEPTING the reality of intermarriage and openly welcoming in the intermarried in the hopes that it will add to the Jewish ranks instead of decimate them.

Despite Eisen's eloquent and politically-correct pleading of his case, and I haven't read HIS stuff, familiarity with Steven Cohen's work shows a long-held bias against the intermarried. Cohen has told me personally that his answer to what the community should do with those intermarried Jews who still want to be Jewish is to "LET THEM GO." In other words, not waste communal resources on them but instead concentrate solely on the fully-Jewish, and on the Jewish singles looking for Jewish spouses. Sadly, his views are extremely relevant because they are shared by so many influential donors and policy makers in the Jewish professional world. The only problem is, it's a pipe dream!

There is only one solution that even has a chance of bolstering Jewish continuity in America, and that is the welcoming and educating of non-Jewish spouses in interfaith marriages. I don't know what Eisen and Cohen suggest instead. What is their answer? To "encourage" in-marriage? How? By creating a new shtetl, a modern Jewish ghetto like the 1950s Brooklyn in which Cohen grew up or the Jerusalem in which he currently lives? I question how much of a grasp he's really got on modern American culture. The intermarriage rate of 10 years ago, which the National Jewish Population Study said was 52% but which Cohen disputes are more like 40%, has no doubt risen since then, and will stay extremely high as long as Jews in this country are free to meet who they want and live how they want (and I loath to think of the alternative!). So our response must be based in reality, not in the hopes and dreams of turning back the clock on Jewish assimilation.

Along these lines, I also take issue with Cohen's theories on Jewish "ethnicity," which I guess was tactfully left out of this new book. Perhaps he hasn't come to terms with the fact that (his brand of) Judaism can no longer be seen as the exclusive domain of an Eastern European Jewry--In fact, the definition of Judaism as an ethnicity has historically only served the enemies of Judaism, and I wonder how he can maintain such beliefs when he walks around Israel among white Jews from Russia, black Jews from Ethiopia, Sephardic Jews from Spain, Ashkenazi Jews from Brooklyn, and Jewish converts from all corners of the earth.

As I said, his views are shared by many, but luckily there are venues like InterfaithFamily.com and JOI.org, and people like Ed Case and Gary Tobin and Egon Mayer working to open up the Jewish religion and culture to all who are interested. I have no doubt that 100 years from now, or even 50 years from now, it will be these people who are hailed as saving American Judaism and not the naysayers who only look to the past instead of finding solutions for the future.

I'll get off my soap box now.

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Author: Mary Frances (64.128.149.---)
Date: 01-30-01 20:24

I think Eisen makes valid points. I am a catholic woman married to a jewish man and we plan to raise our five month old son as a jew. However this is not going to be easy. In fact if I had known how hard this would be, I would have married someone of my own faith. That is not to say I don't love my husband. He is the love of my life. But hindsight is 20/20. What matters to me now is not the same as what mattered to me five or six years ago when I was still in my 20's , not practicing my religion, and everything was hypothetical. Suddenly I am sitting in church wishing my son was with me, and that I could teach him about what I'm experiencing. I worry, too, about whether my son will really get a religious upbringing. My husband is only culturally Jewish; he doesn't practice at all. How will my son learn what it means to be a Jew? Esp. when half his family are Christians? I worry about stuff like this. There are no easy answers. I have NO interest in converting to Judaism. I thought about it briefly but it's just not who I am. Frankly I resent the reform movements idea that it should be a GOAL to convert the non Jewish spouse. Talk about arrogant! frankly, I think conservative and orthodox have it right...don't intermarry at all, but if you do, the child should be the mother's religion.

I also agree that religion in general should discourage intermarriage. It's really not a good idea; causes too many problems. Sometimes we should just listen to the wisdom of our elders.

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Mary

Author: Len (---.ptc.com)
Date: 01-31-01 14:03

Mary,

I think you have it all wrong about Reform. It is certainly not a goal of the Reform movement to convert as many spouses as possible. The goal of the reform movement is to make an interfaith spouse feel welcome. It can be pretty intimidating participating in a religious service that you are totally uncomfortable with. In the US media and culture surround us with images from the Christian world, I bet your son will know what to expect from a Catholic just by watching TV. Imagine how difficult it is to be in an environment in which you are not familiar but also is using a different language.

Additionally, I think that you need to revisit your decision about bringing your son up as a Jew. Your child should inherit those things that are important to both of you. If your husband does not find religion very important why does he want his child to be brought up Jewish? If you are serious about your religion yet your husband is not that will be picked up by the child. If you think about it, this could be a very divisive situation where the child may decide that since Mommy takes her religion more seriously than Daddy maybe I should check out what Mommies religion is all about. If your husband wants Jewish children make him work for it, make him attend temple, study Torah, celebrate the holidays, etc... I'm saying that he should turn into an Orthodox Jew; I'm saying he should take his religion seriously.

Finally, I would have to disagree that religion should preach in-marriage. We live in a global world where ideas are as easily available as turning on your computer. Sure it would be much easier to group ourselves together by belief but we can no longer afford to live in small isolated communities. The marriage of two cultures and beliefs, if done properly, produces a product stronger than the two before. Just look at the United States, the great melting pot of cultures and beliefs.

-Len

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iencouraging n-marriage

Author: Susan (---.milwaukee.k12.wi.us)
Date: 01-31-01 23:56

Well, of course Len is right again. Just because someone is trying to live a Jewish life and raise a Jewish family, that's no reason to say their spouse should live the same kind of life or have the same goals for their children. It's really racist not to include every different lifestyle in the same family. For example, I live in the United States of America, and my husband lives in Singapore. I speak only English and he speaks only Cantonese. I go to Singapore once or twice a year and he comes here once or twice a year. Our marriage is as good as a marriage can be. I can't imagine any other way. No two people could possibly be closer. How dare anyone suggest that their way is any better than ours?!?!?!

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Susan

Author: Len (---.ptc.com)
Date: 02-01-01 14:10

Susan,

What can I say to that? Since you have a flair for exaggerating my statements I have an exaggeration of my own. Susan's philosophy:

"Hey everybody let's all pack our bags and go to the shtetl so that there is no way that all of these goyim could possibly taint our pure religion."

Since I highly doubt this is truly your philosophy please stop exaggerating my statements. By the way, do you have anything productive to add to Mary's situation?

-Len

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The Jew Within

Author: Howard Sontz (12.42.50.---)
Date: 02-01-01 16:40

Regarding the whole argument about whether Jewish institutions and movements encourage or discourage intermarriage, and how they deal with the "problem" once it occurs, may I make just one observation?
If one has travelled widely, or if one has come into contact with Jews from many different countries and backgrounds, I am sure that you noticed one remarkable thing. Many of these "full" Jews look like the non-Jews among whom they and their parents and grandparents live. Yes, there is a "typical Jewish" appearance. Plunk down one of these stereotype Jews in Cairo, or Athens, or Sicily, dressed in the local costume, and he is a typical Meditterranean (sp?) individual. The fact is that once Jews live among non-Jews for several generations, they begin to look like each other - the Jews and non-Jews. (Maybe its something in the water?)
Human beings mingle. They always have. Its a biological imperitive. We have evolved with the urge to breed outside of the group. That's why we're all still not proto-humans, banging flint rocks together somewhere in Africa.
We cannot prevent this intermarriage. It could well be a positive thing healthwise for us as Jews. We need to maintain and strengthen the institutions that welcome and nourish the relationship of the non-Jewish partners to the Jewish people whom they have adopted and who have adopted and accepted them.

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Mary Frances

Author: Susan (---.milwaukee.k12.wi.us)
Date: 02-01-01 18:43

All right. For Len, I'll try to be serious. I seem to recall discussing intermarriage with a Mary Frances a few years ago on the now-defunct JCN forum. As a CJ, I think you're right about RJ. In telling people their children will be Jews if the mothers are not, they seem to be encouraging an unrealistic attitude. Even though you and your husband made an agreement when you were much younger, it now seems to be important to you to pass your Christianity along to this little person after all. Frankly, I don't think it's fair to ask a mother to discuss her own religious beliefs with her own child the way a public school teacher discusses it with her pupils ("What Christians believe is . . ." or "According to the New Testament . . .") If you go to church and wish to share that experience with your son, there probably is no way he will learn what it means to be a Jew. If he learns a lot about Judaism elsewhere, he might develop some kind of Jewish identity, but that's probably not very likely.

Len thinks I should offer you some constructive advice, but anything I suggest, you either already know. Maybe I should offer my advice to Len, out of your "earshot," but he probably won't "listen."

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Author: Mary Frances (64.128.149.---)
Date: 02-01-01 18:47

Those of you who are praising intermarriage, or thinking it could be beneficial in the long run, are ignoring the very heart of the issue: a conflict of beliefs and values. We are not talking about interracial marriage, here. We are talking about inter-religious marriage. Very different animals.

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Author: Mary Frances (64.128.149.---)
Date: 02-02-01 16:54

susan,
thank you for your comments. My husband and I are still working this out. I am not sure that bringing up our son catholic would solve the problem. I want us to be more united as a family. I think this can better happen if we raise our child as a Jew...I can participate in Jewish holidays and rituals more easily than my husband can in christian rituals. He has a distaste for christianity; I don't have this for Judaism. but, I expect my husband to show a serious attitude toward religion, and not just take it for granted as a cultural thing. I don't know if it is possible for him to do this. I have told him I cannot raise a Jew any more than he can raise a catholic; he has to take the initiative. we shall see. But aside from the logical arguments in favor of raising him Jewish, there is the emotional one...like you said, I am the mother, I gave birth to him, I want him to be with me, in all ways. I want him to be the same religion as me. It's always going to be hard to watch him go in a different path. That is why I have to see my husband's commitment to his religion, so I know that even though our son is not catholic, he is being brought up with a strong sense of beliefs. So I know that even though I can't give him the gift of my religion, my husband is giving him the gift of his religion. I guess it would be easier if I were still a lapsed catholic, or if I were going to convert. oh well. you can't be something you're not, and once you're married and have a child, you have to look out for the best interests of your family and not always just yourself.

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Author: Joe (---.proxy.aol.com)
Date: 02-04-01 12:03

Are you going to have a marriage where if your husband expresses a 'distaste' for somthing that you don't he wins? You also have a 'distaste' for raising your child as somthing you are not and he very tenuously is.

This isn't going to be much of a partenership unless you go somwhere and obtain a spine

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Author: Susan (---.milwaukee.k12.wi.us)
Date: 02-04-01 13:13

Mary Frances:

It makes me sad to think about what your family is going through. As I understand it, what you want is for your husband to want to raise his son in his religion. It would certainly not be my first choice that your son be brought up Catholic, but if he is, I would hope you would tell him that there are a lot of other good people where Jesus came from, such as his own father, and he should check out the religion that produced them.

What you may or may not understand is that being a lapsed Jew is not really comparable to being a lapsed Catholic. Instead of being about a personal relationship between the individual and God, Judaism is also largely about being a member of a community. Also, of course, Judaism is not the largest sect within the nation’s most popular and pervasive religion. Many Jews had already abandoned the faith before they immigrated to this country over a century ago, and in every passing generation, they have less and less to pass on to their own children. Often it is only because of a relationship with another Jewish person, a teacher or grandparent or neighbor or friend or spouse, that an individual becomes motivated to reconnect with Judaism. Obviously, that is not your husband’s case. I don’t know if you’ve tried giving him books on Jewish philosophy or Klezmer CD’s or videotapes or jokebooks of Jewish content, or what it would take for him to develop any interest or pride in his heritage.

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Author: Mary Frances (64.128.149.---)
Date: 02-05-01 16:57

Joe,
@!#$ you.

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Mary Frances

Author: MS (---.rutgers.edu)
Date: 02-05-01 17:10

Hi, Mary Frances:

I am so admiring that you are still willing to raise your child as a Jew despite your husband's failure to take the initiative and despite your strong religious feelings. I imagine this means in part that you understand the importance of continuity to a group that has been severely dimished through the extreme duress suffered over 2,000 years and -- I also think -- our high propensity towards the views of the Enlightenment. It is in this light, not that of arrogance, that I urge you to see the desire of some that the non-Jewish spouse convert. It's been found that when that occurs, the child has a better chance of identifying as a Jew, and I think this is what motivates such opinions. However, I strongly believe that nobody should be expected to convert for this reason or for any other reason other than their own individual desire to do so.

I wanted to piggyback on an earlier email and suggest that there are multiple ways to Judaism for your husband. Perhaps an introductory course would help him to feel connected. I often find that those who are disconnected feel like they lack the knowledge to participate.

Your view that your husband needs to step up to the plate on this seems correct to me. I hope that you can work this out in a way that you can all be comfortable with -- whatever that should be.

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ignore posting, testing software

Author: IFF editors (---.ne.mediaone.net)
Date: 12-18-01 13:29

ignore posting, testing software

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Interfaith families

Author: Howard Israelson (---.proxy.aol.com)
Date: 02-21-02 12:42

I was raised as a Reform Jew in Canada and became a "lasped Jew" while in College. When I met my wife she was a Lutheran (with doubts). We agreed that we would raise our children Jewish but she would remain a Lutheran. Before we got married she did a Reform conversion. After being married for 2 years she was unsatisfied as a Jew (due to the fact that I would not do anything Jewish) and my wife forced me to make a decsion. She stated that she would become a Lutheran again unless we became more "Jewish". To make a long story short my wife did an Orthodox conversion, our children attend a Conservative Day School and we are extremely committed Modern Orthodox Jews.

What I am trying to say is that being Jewish is a way of life and it must be very difficult for couples who are of different faiths to raise their children in one faith. It is better to raise them in one faith and in a family that is of one faith. I know that this is not the PC way but it is the truth for me. We have friends who are trying to raise their children Jewish except for Xmas and Easter and it is confusing for the kids and stressfull for the parents.

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Author: Bryce (---.mpowercom.net)
Date: 02-21-02 16:44

Wow, Howard, that was a rollercoaster of a story. Thank you for sharing what I consider a success story, and some sound advice.

I used to think it would be a piece of cake for a Jew to influence his or her Lutheran spouse to convert, by simply informing him/her of Luther's feelings for Jews. But I discovered that the Jewish spouse is much less likely to know about Luther's feelings towards Jews, and the Lutheran spouse is much more likely to consider Luther's feelings irrelevant. (I'd rather not provide examples of Luther's invective here, but you can do a websearch.)

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An Intermarried Perspective On The Jew Within

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