Anti-Semitism and Interfaith Families - Page 2

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Re: Anti-Semitism and Interfaith Families

Author: Mimosa
Date: 06-09-02 19:02

Whoops I misread the topic.

I think.

I think that it's POSSIBLE that interfaith families may face "more" anti-Semitism because the non-Jewish partner (and possibly the Jewish partner as well) will begin to NOTICE it. It's like someone who buys a Nissan suddenly notices all the Nissans on the road. Bad analogy, but you know what I mean, I think. Until with Jon, I gave little mind to the more subtle facets of anti-Semitism. Now it does bother me and I do say something about it when it comes up.

Again, though, there are so many aspects of fear vs. love that make anti-Semitism more complicated and not as easy to eradicate on sight.

M.

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Interfaith Families Have Rights

Author: Robin Margolis
Date: 06-10-02 04:54

6/10/02

Dear Felicia:

You stated that my refusal to give time, money or support to any Jewish organization that does not support interfaith families in some way is wrong because:

<<"There are a slew of issues/causes of importance to world Jewry - solutions to the issue of agunot, medical ethics and Jewish law, supporting new immigrants to Israel, supporting families who have lost members to anti-Israeli terrorists, and yes … anti-semitism ... to name just a few. If you, as a child of an intermarried Jew, condemn these other Jewish causes because they do not explicitly serve the needs of children of intermarried Jews, then you are distancing yourself from the worldwide Jewish community.">>

Felicia, I think that the unintentional messages you're giving me are:

1. Every other Jewish cause or issue is more important than the issues of interfaith families;

2. Refusing to give support to Jewish organizations that don't help me is condemning their work;

3. Insisting that the Jewish organizations that demand money, time, and support from me, give, in return, at least token welcome and support to interfaith families and their organizations ---(website notices welcoming us, maybe some financial support for Ed and Ronnie?) --- then I'm going to be punished by being "distanced."

Well, frankly, Felicia, my issues are just as important those of any other Jew, and should receive the same respectful attention, time and money from the Jewish world that all those other issues do. Interfaith families do not receive much support or respectful attention from the Jewish world --- we are frequently discriminated against, both in the Diaspora and in Israel.

As the adult child of an intermarriage, I am not willing to be a second-class citizen in Judaism any more. I am not willing to sit at the back of the Jewish world's bus any more.

And regarding "distancing" myself if I refuse to give money, time, and support to Jewish organizations that ignore or actively discriminate against interfaith families -- well, how could I, or other members of interfaith families, be more "distanced" from the mainstream Jewish world than we already are? Thousands of interfaith couples and adult children of intermarriage avoid Judaism or limit their participation and support precisely because they are ignored or discriminated against, either openly or subtly.

It's time that interfaith families put their foot down, gently, but firmly, and demand fair treatment as condition of their support for mainstream Jewish organizations. To do otherwise is condependency -- a dysfunctional family situation in which favored family members have rights and privileges, including the right to abusive or ignoring behavior, and other, less-favored family members are nevertheless expected to loyally and uncritically support the favored family members financially and emotionally.

Or as Hillel put it in the Talmud: "If I am not for myself, who then? And being for myself, what am I? And if not now, when?"

As far as the other points made in your post about Israel, we've already disagreed in prior postings about them, and I don't want to repeat what I've already said in prior postings. But if you agree with me, as you say you do, that growing rates of intermarriage in which the children are not raised as Jews is the biggest threat to the survival of Judaism, then why is it wrong on my part to demand that welcoming and integrating interfaith families become a priority in the mainstream Jewish world -- alongside all of the other issues?

Sincerely,
Robin Margolis

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Interfaith Families Can Object to Israeli Policies

Author: Robin Margolis
Date: 06-10-02 05:57

6/10/02

Dear Sylvia:

I am belatedly responding to your 5/28/02 posting.

You had stated: <<Robin, you come very close to blaming the rise of anti-Semitism in the world today on the actions Israel is doing to protect itself and its citizens from horrific attacks.>>

Well, Sylvia, it's clear to me, and many other commentators, Jewish and non-Jewish, both pro-Israel and anti-Israel, that the number of anti-Semitic attacks on Jews worldwide has escalated since the Sharon government took over. I am not alone in this opinion.

You had stated: <<I support the right of Israel to exist as a Jewish state without reservations. . . We all have to place priorities in our lives, and right now, the survival of Israel and the Jewish people is number 1. I know that conservative and orthodox parties in Israel are not a fan of intermarried Jews. But neverthless, I support Mr. Sharon and believe he is the man Israel needs right now.>>

Sylvia, I don't think the question is, do we support Israel? I think the question is, do we support Ariel Sharon's Likud and Orthodox parties government, a question I answer "no." Their actions have always maintained harmful second-class citizen status for interfaith families, in Israel and in the Diaspora. Secondly, many born Jewish Israeli citizens openly object to the Sharon government and its handling of the Palestinians, and have e-mailed my Jewish liberal and peace groups asking for help from the American Jewish community, so why I should I be asked to support the Sharon government in the name of Jewish unity if many Israeli Jews don't?

You had stated: <<By the way, you said we have always survived anti-Semitic threats. Well, we came very close to not surviving one that killed 6 million of our people.>>

Sylvia, I have good grounds for thinking that we have always survived anti-Semitism, and always will. Not to minimize the Holocaust, in which millions of born Jews and members of interfaith families and other non-Jews died in the death camps -- but people like you and me, who are descendants of Ashkenazi (East European) Jews, have to be careful not to equate European Jews with all Jews worldwide. It's what my politically correct Gen X buds (I am a Baby Boomer) would call "Eurocentric thinking."

During WWII, there were thousands of Jews lived quite successfully in the U.S., Australia, New Zealand, Canada, Japan, Sweden, Communist-controlled areas of Russia, etc., etc. Not to mention the Sephardic Jews living all over the the Near East and Asia, including Japan (!!! Germany's ally!!!!). The Germans also complained bitterly that the Italian Fascists didn't want to help in the anti-Jewish campaign.

And I have a book in my possession, "The Last Jews in Berlin," showing that even in Berlin, in 1945, some born Jews and children of intermarriage managed to hide successfully from the Nazis. If the Nazis couldn't even find all the hidden Jews in their heavily-patrolled capital, in a continent that they totally controlled, I doubt they would have been able to kill all of us, even in Europe. In fact, I recall a letter by Himmler, the head of the Gestapo, complaining that he was unable to kill all of the Jews in Germany, to the effect (not an exact quote): "The Germans are all for killing every Jew, until they discover that it means their brother's wife or their secretary. Then I encounter opposition."

Besides, the Tanach (Hebrew bible) promises that God's covenant with us is forever, and that there will always be Jews somewhere in the world. I'm inclined to trust that.

Sincerely,
Robin Margolis

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Re: Interfaith Families Have Rights

Author: Felicia
Date: 06-11-02 04:14

Hi Robin,

Nobody is suggesting that you “sit in the back of the Jewish world’s bus;” quite the opposite, in fact. Your mother is Jewish; according to Jewish Law, you are just as Jewish as Maimonedes, Noam Chomsky, Spinoza, Baruch Goldstein, Michael Lerner, Golda Meir, Ed Case or Ariel Sharon.

As a Jew, you may choose to lend support to any of a variety of Jewish causes; obviously, you may have a vested interest in groups which address issues highly relevant to your own experience. For example, you, as a Jewish resident of the D.C. metro area, may have particular interest in supporting organizations that promote Jewish activities in that geographic locale. Or, as a Jewish woman, you may be interested in promoting women’s tefillah groups. Or, as an adult child of an interfaith family, you may support organizations like IFF which address the specific concerns of Jews in interfaith families.

Nobody here is disputing your right to support these organizations.

But why should organizations (such as the ADL) that don’t specifically deal with issues relating to intermarriage and interfaith relationships, be lambasted for not singling out their support for children of intermarried Jews any more than they would be expected to specify that they support Jewish-retirees-in-Miami, or former-refusniks-from-Russia, or Jewish-vegetarians, or Jews from the D.C. metro area, any other sub-demographic splinter group which is not immediately relevant to the focus of their cause?

I would hardly expect a Jewish vegetarian to get up in arms about IFF because they don’t specifically mention that they support Jewish vegetarians in interfaith relationships, or because they don’t they include a link to the Jewish Vegetarian and Ecological Society on their website!

I realize that adult children of interfaith relationships have various issues that are of specific concern to them, and I think you can do a great service to others by discussing these issues in an appropriate forum such as IFF’s discussion boards. But I also think it makes more sense (and is more productive) to pick your battles and fight against actual discriminatory behavior, not lash out at organizations (l;ike the ADL) that have a completely neutral stance on this topic.

Felicia

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Re: Reply to Robin

Author: Sylvia
Date: 06-11-02 13:45

I never said either you or interfaith families in general had to support Sharon's policies. I said I did. And by the way, Sharon was elected by a majority of Israeli voters, and polls have shown that some 80% of Israeli Jews support the current policies of the Israeli government in defense of Jewish lives. The Sharon government is a unity government, comprising Labor and other more liberal groups. They certainly don't all agree with each other, and in normal times, would be fighting each other like crazy. But these are not normal times and they have come together for the survival of the Jewish state. I have no doubt that you have heard from liberal Israeli citizens but they do not represent more than a small minority. Since both Israel and the United States are both democracies, with a free press and freedom of association (unlike any of the Arab states), you and me and all our friends have the right to freely express whatever views we want. Thank goodness!

You made the assumption I am a descendent of Ashkenazic Jews. It is true I am not only a descendent of Europeans but also a first generation American, but none of my family was Jewish. I am a convert. I am a descendent of Abraham and Sarah and all those souls that were on Mt. Sinai those thousands of years ago.

I do believe that God's covenant is with us forever, but that does not mean we should relax and hope that 'God will provide'. Some of the orthodox communities in Europe believed that and they were mostly wiped out. Most of Sephardic Jews did survive but those in Greece, one of the longest survivng Jewish communities in the world, did not (more than 90% were exterminated). The Jews in North Africa and Palestine survived only because the Allies won the North African campaign after fierce fighting. The Jews in Russia, the Caucasus and further East only survived because of the million Russians who died in the battle of Stalingrad. The few Jews who did survive in Berlin (most did not) only survived because of the sacrifice of thousands of Allied soldiers who fought and died at D-day, at Anzio, in the forests of Belguim and Germany. And now it is the Jews of Israel who are in peril. Thank goodness there are brave men and women who are willing to put their lives on the lines to make sure Israel survives.

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Re: Interfaith Families Have Rights

Author: Robin Margolis
Date: 07-06-02 12:51

7/6/02

Dear Felicia:

Hope you had good holidays!

Felicia said << Hi, Robin. Nobody is suggesting that you “sit in the back of the Jewish world’s bus;” quite the opposite, in fact. Your mother is Jewish; according to Jewish Law, you are just as Jewish as Maimonedes, Noam Chomsky, Spinoza, Baruch Goldstein, Michael Lerner, Golda Meir, Ed Case or Ariel Sharon.>>

Felicia, I'm always being told that interfaith family issues will be addressed someday, as soon as the Jewish world finishes dealing with hundreds of other issues. That's what I mean about feeling like I'm sitting in the back of the bus.

And bless you, I'm not fully Jewish --- thanks to my Orthodox Jew mother running away from home to marry my Episcopalian father, and converted (insincerely) to Christianity, there are several views of my identity:

Orthodox: my mother remained a Jew, but was a sinner, because she converted to Christianity. I am the child of a meshumed, an apostate. I am a Jew, but despite the command of recent halakah (prior to the Talmudic era children of Jewish fathers or Jewish mothers were Jewish), many Orthodox still look upon me with discomfort, as a half-breed (sigh).

(Ironically, I am a teacher of Kabbalah and a major student of Orthodox theological and mystical writings.)

Conservative: See "Orthodox" above.

Reform: I am not a Jew. My mother converted to Christianity (insincerely), and I was raised in my father's Episcopalian faith. I am not a Jew and must formally convert.

Reconstruction: See "Reform" above.

Humanistic: I am a Jew. They accept the children of Jewish fathers or mothers. They ask, "how do you identify" and if you identify as a Jew, then fine.

Renewal: I am a Jew, mostly. Renewal is so new, it depends on the group I affiliate with, and which Rabbi is leading it. 95% of them accept me as a Jew, and they have heavy interfaith family outreach. I co-lead a havurah of theirs. My entire Leader Core, except for one person, are half-Jews, some children, others grandchildren and great-grandchildren of intermarriage, some patrilineal, some matrilineal. We have a group rule: if you have one Jewish parent or grandparent or great-grandparent or great-great-grandparent, you are a Jew. If they want to do a formal conversion, we assist them in finding a friendly rabbi and congregation, but we don't require that before we start treating them as Jews.

Those of us who are descendants of intermarriage in the group have had many discussions about our status problems. We feel Judaism has really loused things up in this area. If Judaism required all of us to convert, we'd do it. If Judaism declared all of us to be Jews, that would be fine, too. But the way things are isn't fair.

So you see, I am not as "Jewish" as the people you cite <<Internet grin>>.

Felicia stated: <<But why should organizations (such as the ADL) that don’t specifically deal with issues relating to intermarriage and interfaith relationships, be lambasted for not singling out their support for children of intermarried Jews any more than they would be expected to specify that they support Jewish-retirees-in-Miami, >>

Felicia, I ask questions when someone brings me a petition from a Jewish organization. Question 1: have they ever done anything for interfaith families? Do they welcome us? OK, ADL apparently has done nothing for intefaith families, for or against, at least nothing I could find on their website. So then I ask: Question 2: Are they friendly to groups that help interfaith families? Or are they friendly to groups that harm us?

So I looked further on their website. I saw a big pitch for Ariel Sharon as "Statesman of the Year," my question was: why are interfaith families being asked to sign a petition to Congress against "anti-Semitism" --- as if the US Congress isn't already on record against it? --- handing over valuable names, e-mail addresses, and potential donor information to an organization that honors a Likud government, when Likud doesn't like (to put it very mildly!) interfaith families? We need to help organizations that have befriended us. Likud has not. I cannot, directly, or indirectly, assist a Likud government. If Likud remains in power, it is bad for interfaith families.

Interfaith families, IMHO, need to put their money into organizations that advocate for us (subliminal pitch for Ed and Ronnie, I have to send them my dues money!). There are some organizations, religious and secular, in Judaism that welcome interfaith families or are friends with organizations that welcome us. Let's give them our signatures and our cash.

Cordially,
Robin

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Re: Reply to Robin

Author: Robin Margolis
Date: 07-06-02 13:23

7/6/02

Dear Sylvia:

I'm somewhat surprised to learn that you are a convert, because as a convert I would have expected you to object to many of Israel's policies. We're sort of posting off-topic here, maybe we should have a board on "Interfaith families and Israel"? ---but briefly:

1. Sylvia says: "Since both Israel and the United States are both democracies, with a free press and freedom of association (unlike any of the Arab states), you and me and all our friends have the right to freely express whatever views we want."

Israel is not a full democracy. It has no written constitution. Also it does not have freedom of religion. The Orthodox control a lot of the religious structure, with a detrimental impact on interfaith families and converts. I don't know which denomination of Judaism you converted through, but if you didn't convert by Orthodox ritual, there would be problems for you in Israel. I know that the Israeli courts have had to intervene on behalf of non-Orthodox converts. Also, the Israeli courts had to intervene against the Orthodox de-legitimizing non-Orthodox (Reform, Conservative) rabbis practicing. Interfaith couples who want to marry in Israel must leave the country and have the ceremony in another country; the ceremony can't be performed in Israel. Some members of interfaith families can't be buried in Jewish cemeteries (controlled by the Orthodox) because their Jewish status is questioned by the Orthodox.

Secondly, the Palestinians would give you a very different view of Israeli democracy during the 1990s before the last intifada broke out. They lived near Orthodox settlements on the West Bank under martial law, while Jews were protected by Israeli civil law. Arabs within Israel would give you their views on being second class citizens within the Israeli democracy --- they would have a lot to say.

2. Sylvia also states: " And by the way, Sharon was elected by a majority of Israeli voters" Well, the Palestinian voters elected Arafat. I think both the Palestinian and Israeli electorates made big mistakes, and I refuse to support either Sharon or Arafat. They're men of deception and violence.

Moreover, as the member of an interfaith family, Sharon is not entitled to my support. His Likud party has harmed interfaith families and converts, never mind bungling the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

3. Sylvia says: " I have no doubt that you have heard from liberal Israeli citizens but they do not represent more than a small minority." Last I heard they were called the Labor Party, and they're not a small minority.

I have also received reports that 400 IDF officers won't serve on the West Bank any more because they say that they won't degrade and harm Palestinians any more? And who report that it is well-known in Israel that the Sharon government is not interested in peace, but in conquest?

4. Sylvia said: "thousands of Allied soldiers who fought and died at D-day, at Anzio, in the forests of Belguim and Germany. And now it is the Jews of Israel who are in peril. Thank goodness there are brave men and women who are willing to put their lives on the lines to make sure Israel survives."

I get the sense that you're comparing the Israelis to the Allies in WWII and the Palestinians to the Nazis. I don't think that historical parallel is accurate.

This is a vicious civil war, like the war between the Protestant Scots-Irish and the Roman Catholic Celtic Irish of Northern Ireland. Both the Israelis and the Palestinians have done terrible things to each other, and have repeatedly spurned mediation and peace negotiations. I will continue giving to the Jewish peace groups, but I fear it will end as did the Northern Irish conflict, with the ruin of their economies and many more deaths before they finally make peace.

Sylvia, I urge you to set aside your warm heart and memories of WWII and look at Israel unromantically. See them clearly.

Sincerely,
Robin Margolis

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Re: Interfaith Families Have Rights

Author: Felicia
Date: 07-09-02 05:26

Robin,

At the risk or repeating myself, IMO, your hostility toward the ADL is misdirected, and I stand by Ed and Ronnie’s decision to sign the ADL’s petition renouncing anti-Semitism, as I believe it is something which impacts all Jews worldwide (be they intermarried or not).

Israel needs our support now more than ever, and I will continue to give my support to Israel and to the Israeli people, as I did during the Oslo years (when, like Sylvia, I did not agree with many of the foreign policies of the Israeli government). Despite my disagreement with some of Israel’s domestic policies (unrelated to the ones your cited), I would never dream of abandoning my support for the Jewish homeland, particularly at this critical time.

<<If Likud remains in power, it’s bad for interfaith families.>>
If Israel ceases to exist, it will be bad (to say the least) for ALL Jews, including the intermarried ones.

------------
As for the question of your Jewish status:

Since it is clear that you are aware of the ambiguities in your status that your complex background presents, it seems disingenuous to introduce yourself as simply “a child of an Orthodox Jewish mother and an Episcopalian father.” Perhaps it would be more honest to describe yourself, at least when discussing your Jewish status, as “the child of a Jewish convert to Christianity and a Christian father” or something along those lines.

I am no posek, but I find it difficult to believe that the Orthodox and Conservative communities (or anyone, for that matter) would regard you as a “half-breed” -- there is no such thing as a “half-Jew” according to halacha; either you are Jewish (by matrilineal descent or halachic conversion) or you aren’t.

As for the Jewish status of the children of converts: I have read that matrilineally Jewish children of anusim (forced converts) are still considered Jewish, although Rabbinic law strongly advises that such persons undergo “kabalat chaverut” (which consists of toveling in a mikvah and accepting the Torah in front of a bet din of three) before rejoining the Jewish community as a practicing Jew. I do not know if the law differs for the child of a meshumedet – a woman who willingly abandoned Judaism and embraced another faith -- or if it matters whether the child in question actively embraced and practiced a non-Jewish religion (i.e., in your case, if you actually underwent an Episcopalian confirmation). I urge you to contact a qualified posek regarding this issue, at least if you are interested in your official status in the eyes of the Orthodox and Conservative Jewish communities.

In any case, it does seem clear that if you want to be considered Jewish by ALL movements within Judaism (including Reform, as well as those that hold by the halachic opinion you cited) and remove ALL doubt about your Jewish status once and for all, you may need to undergo a halachically valid conversion, or at least some sort of kabalat chaverut procedure.

My question for you is: Is acceptance by the entire Jewish community important to you, and if so, why?

If you affiliate with Jewish Renewal, which already considers you Jewish, why do you care if you fail to meet either the Orthodox, Conservative, Reform, or Reconstructionist Movements’ criteria for “Jewishness?”

Alternatively, if you believe in and identify strongly with Judaism as practiced by another movement (aside from your particular Renewal congregation), why not convert (just in case) and be done with it?

<<We feel Judaism has really loused things up in this area. If Judaism required all of us to convert, we'd do it. If Judaism declared all of us to be Jews, that would be fine, too. But the way things are isn't fair.>>

As a historical aside: It seems misplaced to blame “Judaism” as a whole for the current state of confusion, as “Judaism” as a whole never made these decisions as a uniform body. Rather, various groups of Jews decided *unilaterally* to disregard existing Jewish practice, form their own movements, and rewrite their own criteria for determining "Jewishness." This is what the American Reform movement did when it adopted patrilineal descent in 1983 (note that the Israeli Reform movement continues to recognize matrilineal descent only); the Reconstructionist, Humanistic, and Renewal movements made their own independent unilateral rulings on this issue. The Orthodox and Conservative movements, which regard themselves as bound by halacha, simply kept the criterion of matrilineal lineage which had been in use for centuries.

I do agree with you that the inconsistent definitions of “Jewishness” held by various movements can lead to frustration and bewilderment for many children of intermarriages. I can also imagine that those who identify as Jews but who do not meet the definition of “who is a Jew” as spelled out by one or more of the various movements are likely to harbor feelings of bitterness and rejection. It seems rather unfair because they are forced to suffer consequences which resulted from choices made by their parents before they were even born.

All I can say is that for those who are not technically Jewish but who wish to be, Judaism is open to you, should you wish to join the Jewish people, provided you are willing to make the commitments that it demands.

Felicia

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Re: Robin

Author: Benjamin
Date: 07-11-02 23:03

Regarding whether to support the ADL based on what they do for interfaith families: I support Mazon, a Jewish organization combating hunger. They don't address intermarriage at all. But I support them anyway--because hunger is an issue that affects many people, intermarried or not, Jewish or not. I support Chabad's Children of Chernobyl. They don't deal with intermarriage, and their parent organization (Chabad) is against intermarriage. But I support them anyway--because they provide critically needed medical treatment for children in the Chernobyl region suffering from the effects of nuclear contamination. I may not agree with Chabad about a lot of things, but I can completely agree with them that these children need help. And if I don't like their position on intermarriage, well, that's not going to do much for the children who need help. And, I can even support ADL, even if they don't address intermarriage. Because they address anti-Semitism, something that affects me, and affects all intermarried Jews, in-married Jews, single Jews, Orthodox Jews, secular Jews, etc. And because they address many forms of racism perpertrated against many non-Jewish groups, people who are my neighbors and have no connection whatsoever to the intermarriage issue. But people who, just the same, benefit from what the ADL does.

Regarding your Jewish status: Robin, I agree with Felicia that the vast majority of Orthodox and Conservative communities (and I assume Reform as well) would not regard you as a "half breed". My understanding (and echoing Felicia, I am no posek) is that, even if your mother would not be considered a "forced convert", you would be still considered halachically Jewish. However, as with matrilineally Jewish children of anusim, Jewish law would strongly lean toward undergoing kabbalat chaverut. However, this process is not considered to be a conversion or in any way equivelant to a conversion. You may be interested in reading "To Play with Fire" by Tova Mordechai, in which the author was raised in an intensely Christian environment by a mother who was born Jewish and willingly converted to Christianity and a Christian father who was a Pentecostal minister. The book addresses this issue when the author discovers Judaism. Even in that extreme set of circumstances, the Orthodox Jewish community of which she eventually became a part always considered her fully and halachically Jewish.

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Re: Sylvia's posting

Author: Michoel
Date: 08-05-02 17:14

Hello Robin,
You say that you have been mistreated by some segments of the Jewish World because of your lineage. I get the impression that you feel resentment toward Orthodoxy. I'm curious to hear of any specific instances of mistreatment by Orthodox groups (without mentioning names). I am an Orthodox Jew and in my experience, the Orthodox generally treat all Jews that they regard to be Jewish very well. That is to say, if someone has a Jewish mother and a non-Jewish father, the Orthodox will "be m'karev them" or draw them close, just as any other Jew. (Hopefully they treat others well also although they don't acknowledge their Jewishness.) My impression is (this is highly unscientific) that amongst non-Orthodox groups (where halacha is not the sole determinant of Jewishness) there is a greater stress on Jewish ethnicity. This can result in an aloofness toward those don't "seem Jewish", regardless of their halachic status. You could have a blond haired, blue eyed man named Chris, who might be less than fully welcomed amongst some Reform Jews (probably more true of the older generation), but would be readily welcomed into many Orthodox homes because he has a Jewish mother.

Does this experience resonate with anyone?

Michoel

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Children of Intermarriage Deserve Respect

Author: Robin Margolis
Date: 08-10-02 13:28

8/10/02

Dear Felicia:

I have been tied up at work for a while and just now read your reply to my posts.

1. Felicia states: <<If Israel ceass to exist, it will be bad (to say the least) for ALL Jews, including the intermarried ones.>>

Actually, you may be wrong. First, we Jews existed for over 2.000 years without the state of Israel, and developed rich and vibrant cultures. It would not be good if Israel disappeared, but we would manage without it, as we did before. Second, it would not affect intermarried families or the adult children of intermarriage, such as myself in the ways that you seem to believe. We are second-class citizens in Israel. See link below to a recent Jerusalem Post article describing discrimination against converts and children of intermarriage in Israel:

http://interfaithfamily.com/phorums/read1.php?f=184

I would be deeply distressed if Israel disappeared, which is why I help support Jewish peace groups. But interfaith families should not be asked to support Ariel Sharon's Likud government in the name of "support for Israel". Sharon and Likud are not friends of interfaith families, and are not synonymous with Israel's existence.

2. Felicia states: <<if it matters whether the child in question actively embraced and practiced a non-Jewish religion (i.e., in your case, if you actually underwent an Episcopalian confirmation).>>

You may not know that my mother ran away from her abusive and dysfunctional Orthodox family at a young age, and married my Episcopalian fatherand converted to his faith. I was never told that my mother was Jewish, so naturally I was confirmed as a teenager in my father's faith. I found out that my mother was a Jew when I was 34 years old, a few weeks after her funeral, when I found some papers she had hidden away. This was about fifteen years ago.

I immediately took her last name legally, and began living as Jew, and searching for a denomination to affiliate with. I had never been happy as an Episcopalian, and was delighted to learn that I was half-Jewish.

c. Felicia states: <<Since it is clear that you are aware of the ambiguities in your status that your complex background presents, it seems disingenuous to introduce yourself as simply “a child of an Orthodox Jewish mother and an Episcopalian father.” Perhaps it would be more honest to describe yourself, at least when discussing your Jewish status, as “the child of a Jewish convert to Christianity and a Christian father” or something along those lines. >>

First, I am not being "disingenuous", and I would appreciate not being called negative adjectives.

No one was more surprised than I was to discover that my mother's family was Orthodox. I had assumed, before I met her family, that she had been from a Reform family, to take such a step as intermarriage in the 1940s, I figured that she must have come from a liberal Jewish background. But my mother's family were Litvakers, northern Polish Orthodox Jews from Bialystok and Warsaw, Poland. Ironically, I have more proof of my identity --- family photos, accounts, interviews --- than most born Jews.

Second, whenever I tell groups of born Jews nowadays that my mother was Orthodox, at least one of them --- almost invariably someone who is also from an Orthodox or Conservative family --- will immediately try to invalidate that, searching for some halachic or other reason. I note that I NEVER hear Jews say that to the child of a Reform, Reconstructionist, secular, etc. Jew who converted to Christianity. I believe that there are several reasons why some born Jews tell me this:

a. It is very threatening for some born Jews of all persuasions to hear that an Orthodox man or woman would intermarry and/or convert out of Judaism. So they want me not to mention that about my mother.

b. It is very threatening to some born Jews of all persuasions advocate for the rights of children of intermarriage as the descendant of an Orthodox family. I have more credibility because of my ancestry and my own studies of Orthodox theology? (I think this is silly, as if other branches of Judaism are not as good.)

c. I think this is among some Jews a power thing, shown by telling me what I should say about my mother, and directing the discussion away from the 'dangerous' topic of the poor treatment of children of intermarriage and interfaith couples within Judaism to "Robin's Orthodox Mother."

d. I believe that some Jews tell me how I should talk about my mother because they want to hurt my feelings and perhaps also make me ashamed of my mother. There are some real xenophobes out there.

e. Some born Jews want to silence interfaith family discussions. There is a small group of Orthodox Jews on the AOL Jewish message boards who used to sign on to the adult children of intermarriage messages support board (!!!), and each one of the adult children would be trashed by them for some aspect of their parentage (me for saying I had an Orthodox mother; another woman for having "only" a Jewish father, etc.)

e. Finally, it is against halakah (Orthodox Jewish law) to tell me that I should refer to my mother as a convert. It is my understanding that the law states "al pi hu, Yisrael hu" --- "even though a sinnner (i.e., apostate?), always a Jew." A ruling by the late Rabbi Moshe Feinstein in suggested that the Jewish children of apostates say Kaddish for their apostate parent on the grounds that the parent's soul would thereby be redeemed from hell or Gehenna (where presumably it is being punished for apostasizing.) That suggests to me that he still regarded people like my mothers as Orthodox Jews, albeit sinners.

There are also a number of halachic rulings, going back centuries, stating that Jews should not ask the Jewish-identified children of apostates (Jews converting to other religions) to identify their parents as converts to other religions.

f. Felicia stated: <<I urge you to contact a qualified posek regarding this issue, at least if you are interested in your official status in the eyes of the Orthodox and Conservative Jewish communities.>>

Felicia, if I may translate your words, they think I'm a real, but tainted or partial Jew, and some Orthodox rabbis would require a quasi-conversionary ritual, "kabalat chaverut” (which consists of toveling in a mikvah and accepting the Torah in front of a bet din of three) before rejoining the Jewish community as a practicing Jew.

So much for my automatic acceptance within Orthodoxy as the daughter of a Jewish (Orthodox, yet) mother.

2. Felicia states: <<Is acceptance by the entire Jewish community important to you, and if so, why? Why not convert (just in case) and be done with it? >>

Robin replies: It's not just about me. I'm just one very vocal example. First, as is obvious from our discussion above, an Orthodox conversion would not address my problems. I have known other children of intermarriage who had Orthodox conversions, and they are still baited by born Jews about their parentage.

Second, it really, really, really isn't about me. It's about thousands of children of intermarriage, many of whom are not affiliating as Jews because they are badly treated or ignored by Jewish institutions. It's about the discriminatory, cruel and patronizing treatment children of intermarriage receive from many born Jews when they try to affiliate as Jews. It's about the institutionalized rules of the various denominations ("you're Jewish" "you're not Jewish"). It's about the refusals of rabbis to perform our parents' weddings or other pastoral functions and ceremonies or let them affiliate with synagogues. It's about Israel's built-in discrimination against interfaith families.

It is not "misplaced" to object to Judaism's discriminatory treatment of us and our intermarried parents, which often involves holding us to standards of conduct and belief that are not enforced on most born Jews. It's discrimination, and I want interfaith couples and adult children of intermarriage to start speaking up about it.

You know, Felicia, I find it very odd that I'm having to defend myself, and my Jewish mother's identity, and my objections to the Jewish community's handling of children of intermarriage issues on an interfaith family website.

I believe that you are intermarried, presumably why you are posting here, and if you are intermarried, perhaps you have children by the intermarriage. My issues should be very familiar to you.

Sincerely,
Robin Margolis

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Anti-Semitism in the Family

Author: Layla
Date: 10-07-02 22:38

Hello All,

I find this conversation fascinating. I converted to Judaism 6 years ago, when I was already married to a non-Jew. My husband's family are wonderful people for the most part, but a few of the older ones are clearly uncomfortable with Jews. A few years ago my husband's grandmother was recounting a story about her brother, the family tightwad. "We always used to call Tom our Jewish trader!" she said laughing.

"Uncle Tom was Jewish?" I asked in perplexed naivete. There was a sudden ghastly silence. Aha, I thought.

Granny and Grandpa immediately fell all over themselves explaining that they hadn't really meant anything by the remark, that it was a "Chicago expression". Granny did eventually apologize, after feeling the gimlet stares from her daughters. What really bothered me was that I am not their only Jewish grandchild-in-law; my husband's sister is married to a "real" Jew. They are probably more careful around him .

Irony of ironies: about an hour after this incident we ran into G and G at the grocery store. They asked my husband if they could borrow his Jewel Preferred card so they could get the 10% discount!

Has anyone else experienced anti-Semitism from family members?

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ADL and Ralph Reed

Author: Layla
Date: 10-07-02 22:45

One quick anecdote about the ADL: I stopped contributing after I saw an ADL ad featuring Christian Coalition honcho Ralph Reed. This guy has done more defaming of non-Christians, gays, and anyone who disagrees with him than almost anyone on the public scene, and I think it is disgraceful that a Jewish organization would allow its name to be allied with his.

In case you're wondering, his ADL letter calls for more support of Israel. However, like many fundamentalist Christians his support of Israel is due more to their apocalyptic vision about the 2nd coming than to a true concern for Jewish life.

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Re:

Author: Ilan
Date: 10-11-02 12:31

Robin jewish lobby groups are there for a different purpose than interfaith. I am not crazy about the ADL because they take too many liberal positions.

I would much rather support AIPAC.

Sharon may not be popular with you Robin, but he is popular among Israelis. He was voted overwhelmingly into office and the Labor government was voted out.

I would much rather that organizations such as the ADL and other organizations try to combat anti-semitism all over the world and get votes to support Israel. This is where Jews are being physically hurt which is much more important than interfaith issues.

Besides how could a large Jewish lobby group take a position on something that Jews themselves don't have a position on?

Ilan

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Interfaith Families Should Not Blindly Support Israeli Government

Author: Robin Margolis
Date: 11-20-02 09:54

11/20/02

Dear Ilan:

I have been tied up for the last two months taking care of a friend who was going through surgery, so I had not visited these boards in quite a while, and was delayed in responding to your posting.

In response to your posting:

1. Ilan stated: "Sharon may not be popular with you Robin, but he is popular among Israelis. He was voted overwhelmingly into office and the Labor government was voted out."

If I understand you correctly, you're suggesting that it's my duty to support Sharon and the Likud government of Israel --- even though they and their right-wing coalition partners are well-known not to be friendly to interfaith families --- because they're popular with the Israelis?

Wait a minute --- I'm the adult child of an intermarriage --- why should I have to support any Israeli government that's harmful to the interests of interfaith families? It is a mark of low self-esteem to support any government, organization or person that is harmful to one's interests.

2. Second, the Sharon government is not universally popular with all Israelis --- see link to Labor Party's repudiation of his government and of the Labor party leader who worked with him, and choosing a new leader to fight Sharon in the coming elections.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A12403-2002Nov19.htm

If many Israelis have freedom of speech to oppose the Sharon government, than surely I and other members of interfaith families are entitled to object to his government as well?

3. Ilan stated: "I would much rather that organizations such as the ADL and other organizations try to combat anti-semitism all over the world and get votes to support Israel. This is where Jews are being physically hurt which is much more important than interfaith issues."

I perpetually hear, from born Jews of all descriptions, "X issue is much more important than interfaith issues." Almost every issue in Judaism seems to be more "important" than interfaith family issues.

Well, Ilan, for me, interfaith family issues are important. I am not willing to spend the rest of my life in Judaism as a second class citizen, in the back of the bus, who's perpetually asked to give money and support to organizations that benignly (or deliberately) ignore my interests or (in the case of Likud and its allies) harm them. It's a matter of common sense and self-respect.

Sincerely,
Robin Margolis

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