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Re:

Author: Andrew
Date: 10-16-02 15:52

You wrote: Lester became circumcised as an adult (which by any measure, was a LOT more painful than if it had been done at 8 days of age).
How does that jive with this:

The definitive study of the human neonatal pain sensory mechanism was published by Anand and Hickey in the New England Journal of Medicine in November 1987.17. They wrote:

"Numerous lines of evidence suggest that even in the human fetus, pain pathways as well as cortical and subcortical centers necessary for pain perception are well developed late in gestation, and the neurochemical systems now known to be associated with pain transmission are intact and functional....Other responses in newborn infants are suggestive of integrated emotional and behavioral responses to pain and are retained in memory long enough to modify subsequent behavior patterns....[I]n decisions about the use of these techniques, current knowledge suggests that humane considerations should apply as forcefully to the care of neonates and young nonverbal infants as they do to children and adults in similar painful and stressful situations."
The evidence that neonates feel pain and suffer as much or more than do older children and adults is conclusive and generally accepted today. 17

Andrew

timely topic indeed!

Author: Felicia
Date: 10-17-02 13:59

The Torah portion that Jews all across the world will read this Shabbat, Lech L'Cha, contains the explicit commandment by G-d to circumcise our sons.

Circumcision for Jews is a religious issue. There may or may not be slight health advantages/disadvantages to circumcision (just like there may be some health benefits to keeping kosher) but that's not really the point. Jews have circumcised their sons for thousands of years because we are commanded to do so by G-d.

If I weren't Jewish, I'd have no strong desire to circumcise my sons, just as I'd have no qualms about having shrimp scampi.

As Rabbi Olitsky responsibly told the couple he counseled, if you don't circumcise your sons, it will become their responsibility to get themselves circumcised when they come of bar-mitzvah age. What a terrible burden for a 13-year-old to have to bear!

A young adult's reluctance to undergo the procedure as a teenager/adult may deter him from feeling part of Klal Yisrael (the Jewish People). It seems that parents of Jewish children [or of children who are being raised Jewish with the intention of giving them the option to convert when they become a bar- or bat-mitzvah] owe it to their children not to burden them with this responsibility.

Felicia

Re: Rabbi Familant's article

Author: Rabbi Yeshaia Charles Familant
Date: 10-18-02 13:54

Michael,

I appreciate reading your response to one particular comment that I made in my article regarding the difficulty, if not impossibility, in determining the relative sexual pleasure the male derives when comparing the circumcised with the uncircumcised male.

Although what I am including below (a portion of my original article, which the editor chose to edit out) may not seem an adequate rebuttal to your thoughtful comments, in fairness to my presentation, I am placing it here:

"It is true that some have "reversed" the process; once having been circumcised they have now become uncircumcised. Such persons, it might be maintained, can compare the before and after states. I would raise three questions about this: 1) Can a true reversal actually be obtained? 2) After one has endured the surgery for reversal, would he then admit that he made a mistake? 3) How much of the reported enhanced pleasure is due to a subjective response influenced by the anticipation of greater pleasure? There is too much ambiguity here for this writer, so I shall leave further discussion of these arguments to the experts. "

Granted, the procedure you have described is non-surgical and may in fact be pleasure enhancing. As you suggest, there may be some data to support such a contention. Therefore, you may find my above remarks irrelevant to such a procedure. Maybe so. I plead nolo contendere.

Rabbi Yeshaia Familant

Re: Welcome to our discussions!

Author: leonora
Date: 10-20-02 10:47

Hi:

I have an 8 year old son who is not circumcised because when he was born, my husband (non-jewish) and myself (jewish) considered it a barbaric ritual and it was not even an option for us. As years passed by, I became more and more interested in judaism and felt it more a part of who I am (a long story), started attending sporadically a jewish congrregation, and this last past High Holidays, I went to a service with my son and daughter. My son asked me to wear a kippah and I can see him becoming more and more interested in judaism. He even says he's a jew whenever anybody asks him.
However, since he is not circumcised I totally avoid the issue with him. I even doubt he even knows he's different from other jewish boys.
Both my husband and I agree that our children should choose the religion they want to embrace (if any at all) but I'm wondering if by not having been circumcised, my son is already one step behind if he were to choose judaism (as he seems to be doing).

Also, I would like to know if boys need to be circumcised to have their Bar Mitzvah, in case he becomes interested in it.

I will welcome any replies and suggestions about how to deal with this matter.

Leonora

Re: Circumcision

Author: leonora
Date: 10-20-02 10:52

Hi Brenda:
Thanks for the message you posted. I found it very interesting. Would I be able to receive your 4 page article?
As well, could you send me a bit more info on the book you recommend (Goldman's), so that I'll be able to get hold of it in Canada?
Thanks again,
Leonora

Responsa to Leonora

Author: Rabbi Jacques Cukierkorn
Date: 10-20-02 19:02

In Judaism there are not sacraments. So, a Jew that is not circumcized is still a Jew. Although it is preferable that he would have been circumcized, I would do a Bar Mitzvah for a boy under your circunstances in my temple.
Best of Luck,

Re: Snip or not

Author: Dave
Date: 10-24-02 15:32

Everyone does what WORKS for them... I had a bris, my son had one, and my father had one... I am "one for" completing the cycle.

I have this thing inside me that says "Who am I to break the chain of traditions and laws" --- For me, too many Jews died because they were circumcised and in their memory, I keep the faith... I think about all the Jews that died in the Holocaust and I say to myself... "Dude, keep the traditions alive"

Dave

Tough choice

Author: Andrea
Date: 10-30-02 16:58

I am now pregnant with my 1st child. I don't know if it will be a boy or a girl, and so I have to consider the bris issue. As recently as 20 years ago, the thought of not having one would never have crossed my mind. Then again, chances are I would not be with a non-Jewish man either. The more the world opens up, the more difficult the choices we have to make become.

The father and I have always agreed that our children would be given choices as to what paths to follow. This applies to schooling, careers, sports, pasttimes, religion, and every other aspect of life. I have agonized over whether or not to have a bris for my son. But I have finally decided that it is meaningful, and it is important for my son to have a bris, even though all the reasons stated in this discussion, and in many other pieces against circumcision speak very strongly to me.

I want to give my son the choice of being a more observant Jew than I am when he grows up. I want to open doors for him; give him opportunities.

In giving my son a bris, I will be making sure he has a community that will welcome him, and that I have actually given him the choice to go to that community. Not giving him a bris would be possibly cutting him off from that community by making him go through the psychological agony described by J.R. above of having to choose whether or not to circumcise, never mind the physical pain of going through with it if he chooses orthodox conversion. In giving him a bris now, I will have given him the choice of marrying an orthodox woman, as much as the choice of marrying a catholic, budhist or pagan woman... or a man for that matter... but that's another discussion board, I'm sure.

No matter what I or my son or husband do, my son will always be seen as a Jew by the gentile world. Unfortunately, this means he will not always be made welcome. I don't want him to be unwelcome in the Jewish world as well. It is important for a human being to belong somewhere, and if by default my son will not be allowed to belong elsewhere, by giving him a bris, I am ensuring that he will always be welcome in the Jewish community.

I am Jewish. The traditions, the history and the culture belong to me. I want them to belong to my children also, to do with as they see fit.

This is my choice, and I wish all you other parents and parents-to-be out there the best in making your choices, and in carrying them out with conviction and with love. After all, these are the most important things we can give our children.

Re:

Author: Carolyn
Date: 12-17-02 09:58

Recently, a friend of mine had stated that they will be having a Shimchat Bat on (Sunday) approximately (1 year) since, the birth of their daughter.

I'm surprised that the family is having the ceremony on Sunday and (1 year) later.

I know there may be no explicit rituals for a girl. Instead, there are customs for simchat bat, celebration of a birth of a daughter. Through my studies the baby girl should be named during the first Sabbath after she is born, but it's acceptable to name her at any Torah reading (the Torah read Mon - Thur. mornings as well as holidays and the Sabbath).

What would your conclusion be as to why the family feels to participate in a celebration (1 year) after the child is born? Is this now the modern day Simchat Bat? Or is this a celebration that is followed at any time Jewish familes wish to express joy on the birth of a girl?

Simchat Bat

Author: J.R.
Date: 12-19-02 10:32

Simchat Bat doesn't really have a lot of precedents in Jewish law. Traditionally, a family welcomed a son into the covenant with the brit milah (ritual circumcision) on the eighth day of life, and a girl was named in synagogue as you described above.

Over the past 30-odd years, Jews have sought ways to celebrate the birth of a daughter with as much festivity as the birth of a son is celebrated Various ceremonies and rituals have been created, but there is no standard procedure for a Simchat Bat. Nor are there any rules about when a Simchat Bat may be held.

I don't know of any reason why a Simchat Bat may not be held on Sunday. Although Sunday is the Christian day of worship, it doesn't have any negative connotations in Judaism. While I am somewhat surprised that this family would wait a full year to celebrate a Simchat Bat, there are no time limits for doing so. Unlike brit milah, which must take place on the eighth day unless the child's health requires waiting until a later time, Simchat Bat may take place on any day the family finds convenient, at any place the family may choose.

Re: Simchat Bat

Author: Susan
Date: 12-19-02 12:40

The only reason I can see why people would not do a girl's baby naming ceremony on a Sunday is that it traditionally accompanies the Torah reading, and those are routinely done on Saturday, Monday, or Thursday morning or Saturday afternoon, or Rosh Hodesh (new moon). The big exception would be Rosh Hodesh, which can happen on any day of the week. My daughter had a classmate who had a Rosh Hodesh Bar Mitzvah on a Sunday, at a very traditional synagogue. But as J.R. points out, there is nothing very traditional about the big modern naming ceremonies for baby girls.

We have a cousin who decided to do a "Jewish naming ceremony" for three children in one fell swoop, her new baby girl and the older son and daughter (10 or 12?) by her previous (non-Jewish) husband, to recognize them as Jews (albeit retroactively). It was not, to say the least, a traditional Brit Milah (circumcision ceremony) but the rabbi came up with something very creative.

Re: Circumcision

Author: Chris
Date: 01-03-03 08:12

Dear Brenda,
You deserve a lot of credit for writing and speaking out on this topic. I wish I had read this 9 years ago when we were looking for support NOT to circumcise our son.

Re: circumcision

Author: stacie
Date: 01-07-03 07:12

hi Brenda,

I found your "post" on circumcision very interesting. My husband and I are talking about starting a family soon, and feel that we will have some intense hurdles to overcome as we are an interfaith couple. I would love to see a copy of your alternative bris ceremony if you have a chance to send it.

Thank you

Choosing a name

Author: Paulette
Date: 01-11-03 19:29

What do you think? My sister is currently pregnant and although she was going to name her daughter, due in April, after an Aunt of ours, she has changed her mind and decidede to name her a name she and her husband have chosen because they like it. The problem is that the name she has chosen in Enhglish is a form of our other sister's hebrew name. My sister's name is Sora in hebrew and my other sister has chosen the name Sarah. My parents are upset beyond belief and this is destroying our family. By the way my sister who is not religious, whose name it is, is not happy either with our sister;s choice. What do you think, is our family going to be cursed if she goes through with it?

Re:

Author: (anonymous, for now)
Date: 01-22-03 14:46

Naming someone after a family member who passed away
is only a tradition, not a religious requirement, and not only that
it's only Eastern European (Ashkenazi) jews who've done it - it's
actually common in Sephardic jewish cultures to name children
after living relatives.

Presumably your family does have the tradition of naming children
after family members who've passed away. But even so, I don't think
anything in that tradition carries some superstition that whenever
you *don't* follow the tradition, *and* the name happens to overlap with
a living relative's name, it means they're somehow cursed to die!

The only real insults I see in your story seems to be in deciding not to honor your aunt by naming the child after her, after originally saying she would do so, and in deciding that liking the sound of one's child's name is more important than a religiously-inspired naming tradition in general.
Choosing a new name that sounds like your other sister's Hebrew name seems pretty irrelevant.

Plus, I assume that your sister's English name is not Sarah even though her
Hebrew name is Sora? What's to stop your niece-to-be from being named
Sarah and given a *Hebrew* name that isn't Sora -- in fact, her hebrew
name could be after her Aunt. Again, no rules say the Hebrew name
has to match the English name at all.... there are just so many variations
here.

Circumcize the boys

Author: hannah
Date: 02-06-03 16:14

I had twin boys that I had to give up for adoption. I had them circumcized by a mohel on their eighth day in a traditional ceremony. The adoptive couple, who opposed circumcision and had not circumcized their other son, understood the importance this had for me and agreed long before the birth. My sons will not be raised as Jews, but they will know their mother was Jewish, and they will know that this was their birthright, which she secured for them, to be brought into the covenant in the traditional way, without being burdened with the fearful responsibility of making that step on their own, should they ever choose to explore and assume their identity as Jews, which is what they are.

bris

Author: sue
Date: 02-18-03 18:44

this is my first Bris and I'm not sure if there is an appropriate gift to give , if there is can you please let me know.

Sincerely,
sue

Re: Circumcision

Author: Debbie Neilan
Date: 04-02-03 17:56

I am the "Jewish-half" in my marriage - my husband, though raised Catholic, is not practicing and is not a big participant in organized religion per se. We have been struggling more with the ceremonial issues around circumcision, more than the circumcision itself (he is circumcised).

Before we were married, we agreed that our children would be raised Jewish. I always knew that being part of an interfaith couple would bring many challenges. Now that we are expecting two boys in the near future (twins - can you stand it? We were stunned!) obviously the issue of the bris has been raised numerous times.

My husband has concerns around the 8-day waiting period. He has agreed to have a ceremony, but would like to do it at the hospital, rather than at our home so that it may be performed more quickly. I have never been one to truly question my religion. I know that the bris is meant to represent the covenant between man and G-d and that it is performed at the 8-day mark. I will admit that I do not understand the importance of the 8th day. I don't know that a bris can technically be done prior to the 8th day, which means that our children would just be circumcised - there would be no Jewish tradition involved. Is this correct?

I have concerns about having it at the hospital. While I have not been to many brit, I feel the ceremony at home is more personal (and perhaps I am kidding myself but it seems less traumatic for the baby as people can hold the child, etc.). I also believe this is when our children will receive their Hebrew names...if we do not have a bris, when will they get their Hebrew names?

I welcome any information.

Debbie

Re: 8 days?

Author: sara
Date: 05-14-03 18:53

well, babies don't fully develop their blood-clotting ability until about a week after birth, so waiting 8 days really does give them a good advantage in terms of being more physiologically able to handle the procedure.

In addition, at 8 days they will have had more time to develop their breastfeeding routine and their sucking skills, so the upset of the circumcision doesn't derail their ability to get milk and comfort from breastfeeding.

and as for the hospital circumcision, the babies are generally strapped down hand and foot to a plastic board called a "circumstraint" and the doctor will often do several babies at a time, all lined up in a row - a far cry from being held lovingly by grandpa. The restraint itself can be very traumatizing for the baby.

And the device that hospitals use to circumcise is much more damaging to the baby's tissue - it is forced over the glans and then another part is attached which crushes the foreskin.

Whereas the mohel just stretches the foreskin out, protecting the penis with a very simple guard, and then slices through the foreskin cleanly with a very sharp scalpel. And the baby is with family the whole time and can be back in his mother's arms within seconds. Many mohels will also use anesthesia if the parents request - most commonly a topical gel.

and many hospitals now are following the example of the traditional bris, giving babies dropperfuls of sugar water (like the sweet wine given to babies at a bris) both before and after the circumcision because they have found that the glucose dramatically helps babies tolerate the pain and they show less distress.

So I think you should be able to make a solid case to your husband that a traditional bris is gentler and less traumatic to the baby - in addition to the meaning that it has ritually.

good luck!

Re: circumcision

Author: kim
Date: 05-16-03 08:19

HI
I WOULD LOVE TO KNOW AN ALTERNATIVE TO THE CIRCUMCISION PROCESS AS FAR AS A CEREMONY GOES. I AM CATHOLIC AND MY HUSBAND IS JEWISH AND I AM NOT TO FOND OF THE IDEA OF OUR FUTURE CHILDREN HAVING TO UNDER GO THIS IF IT IS NOT ONE HUNDRED PERCENT NECESSARY. THANKS

Re: home or hospital?

Author: Susan
Date: 05-16-03 09:53

Debbie,

Sara makes some excellent points. The one about learning how to breastfeed is a really good one, which I had never thought of before. But it's so true, expecially if you're having twins!

I have seen circumcisions done both ways. My first daughter was born in the hospital with an obstetrician. While I was there, I saw my doctor do a circumcision. I suppose most of the surgeons in a maternity ward will be obstetricians, so they routinely do circumcisions there, even though the anatomy is obviously different from that of their own patients. Anyway, they were alone in the little room with a window, and the baby was strapped into this restraint which looked remarkably like a crucifix. There was no mother present to take him and comfort him when it was over, nor any happy gathering or family and friends. All I could think was "Thank God that no son of mine will ever have to go through that kind of procedure."

Re: circumsisions

Author: Kathy
Date: 05-17-03 12:36

Just want to point out that not all circumsisions done by doctors are so barbaric. My son's was done in the doctor's office by his pediatrition. He had anesthesia and I was there to comfort him during and after.

For me, living in a town with a very small Jewish population, having a rent-a -mohel (whom I did not know) was out of the question.

Re: rent-a-mohel

Author: Susan
Date: 05-19-03 11:17

Kathy,

I'm glad that your son has a good pediatrician, and I didn't go so far as to accuse the doctor I saw of barbarism. I just want to say a word in defense of mohelim (pl. or mohel) who do circumcisions for people they don't know.

It is in the nature of a mohel's duty that he not have a long-term relationship with the person he circumcises. A mohel should be happy to go to a small town, and there is no dishonor in his doing so for strangers. It's his (or her) job. After all, how well acquainted can anybody be with someone who's only a week old? Some people may question the integrity of a rent-a-rabbi who will perform weddings for strangers, but a mohel? There's nothing wrong with that.

Furthermore, Brit milah is more than just a surgical procedure. It's a religious ceremony, consecrating a new Jew and welcoming him into Jewish life. Did you do all the prayers and the partying in the pediatrician's office, or at your home afterward? Or did you skip those entirely? I hope that your living apart from a large Jewish community doesn't deprive your little boy of the opportunity to learn about his heritage.

Re:circumcision

Author: sara
Date: 07-02-03 15:58

This may be a touchy subject, so I will try to stay as non-dogmatic as possible. Please forgive me if I sound preachy, this is an issue dear to my heart.

Cicumcision is not only a cultural mark, although that is an important role it plays that I will discuss in a second. Circumcision is the sign that a boy has been swron into covenant with our G-d, the G-d of Abraham, G-d of Isaac, and G-d of Jacob. It is said that it will be the last mitzvah which will be remebered by the Jews, when they have strayed from all else, just as it was the first mitzvah, the sign of the covenant which created our people.

However, if the religious reasons do not compel, there are soem other reasons to think about:

1-It is the mark of being Jewish. A friend of mine dated a (non-practicing) boy, whose grandmother escaped the Holocaust. When my friend discovered the boy was not circumcised, not only did she dump him, she came to question how exactly his grandmother had gotten out of Germany. Whether true or not, in the eyes of many Jews, not circumcizing a son is very literally turning your back opn our enitre tradition, and an uncircumsized Jewsih man will have to bear that sort of stigma.

2-Adult circumcision is (I hear) quite painful, and moderately dangerous (as an erection can aggrevate the wound). If your son decided to live a more traditional Jewish life, he would be required to undergo this procedure.

3-This is probably the most important one in my mind: Most Jewish girls will not consider dating (or, at least, having sex with) an uncircumsized man, even if they will date non-Jews. By not circumsizing a son, you virtually ensure he will be unable to take a Jewish wife if he desires.

sara

Re:

Author: dave w
Date: 07-07-03 14:56

I have been married for 1 year now. I am a Jew and my wife is catholic. We are considering having kids, but the thought of a bris is scaring her. My sister just had a bris, where my wife was witness, and she did not like it. We are raising the kids with both religions but with the catholic sacraments. I still feel it is important to have a bris. I am not really religious, but I want my son to have what I had, a bris. If a child is raised with the catholic sacraments, can that child also have a bris, or a Bar-mitzvah? How do I convince my wife that this is important to me even though I am not to religious

Re:

Author: sara
Date: 07-08-03 09:50

"If a child is raised with the catholic sacraments, can that child also have a bris, or a Bar-mitzvah?"

I am not a rabbi or much of a Torah scholar, however, I would answer as follows:

Catholic baptism and Jewish circumcision are ultimately incompatible.

Circumcision binds the child into the covenant of Abraham in blood. It's function is to introduce the boy into the tribe if Isreal, but it is also to announce your dedication of the child to G-d, in the manner of the convenenat He made with Abraham.

As I understand it, the function of a baptism is to remove "original sin" (which is completely antithetical to Jewish thought, in my opinion) and to dedicate the child to Christ.

Unless you feel that Catholicism is still within the covenant of Abraham (something I would vehemently disagree with, as I feel it is idoloty. I can elucidate why if desired), you would be dedicating your child to two incompatible paths. This is not a desirable situation for the child's soul. He will be ultimately incapable of fulfilling both of them, becasue they conflict.
A better choice would probably be to have the child circumcised at the hopsital, without ceremony, for the non-religious reasons I mentioned in my previous post.

As to a bar mitzvah, this is even more inapropriate. Or, rather, it could be more appropriate. As I understand it, Catholics have a similar sort of coming-of-age ritual called confirmation, where they reaffirm the commitment made for them as infants in baptism themselves, as adults? Does that happen around the same age? I would say that, in Judaims, 13 marks the age when I boy starts to make his own religious decisions. The only viable course of action I see is to explain to the boy very very clearly that if he has a Bar Mitzvah, he is deciding that he is Jewsih, and that if he has a confirmation, he is deciding that he is Catholic. There isn't really a middle ground. Or, at least, I don't see one.

Now, my last and most important point may be sticky for some people. I will try to be as blunt and as frank as possible to save you future hurt. I find it unlikely (and in fact, I hope it is impossible) that you will be able to find a rabbi to officiate such rituals. You see, your children with this woman are not Jewish, not even by Reform standards, and certainly not by the custom which has guided our people for millenia. There is no such thing as "partly Jewish" in the eyes of G-d, and religious rituals, are, ultimately, about G-d. Circumcize your son, so that he has the option of converting as an adult if you like. Partake as much as you want of "Jewish culture", but think very hard about what you are doing. These children ARE NOT Jewish. Is that ok with you?

love, light, peace,

sara

Re: Dave's questions

Author: BobP
Date: 07-08-03 18:24

Dave

I am a Jewish man married to a Catholic woman (over 25 years). My kids were raised Catholic.

A bris is the ceremony where the boy is welcomed into the covenant. If he is not going to be Jewish, what is the point? Do you honestly believe a child <<raised with the catholic sacraments>> should have a bar mitzvah? That is the ceremony where a Jew takes on the privileges and responsibilities of an adult. One cannot be a Christian and simultaneously be a Jew.

I for one believe a child should be raised in ONE religion. That does not mean the other is ignored. Just like when you went to a friends birthday party, you celebrated with him, but it was not YOUR party, your kids can learn about another religion without it being "theirs". But I can see no method of being both without "watering down" the tenants.

Anyway, that's my 2 cents worth.

Best wishes

Bob

Re: Welcome to our discussions!

Author: LANNY ARONOFF
Date: 07-17-03 11:08

If neither birth parent is Jewish, but the adoptive parents are, what is required for the child to be considered Jewish? Is going through a Bar Mitzvah enough?

Re: Lanny

Author: BobP
Date: 07-17-03 15:36

Adopted child needs to be converted. A rabbi of whatever movement the adoptive parents follow can give particluars. Since only a Jew (by birth or conversion) can have a Bar/Bat Mitzvah, the adoptee must be converted before this ceremony can occur.

If it is a known fact that the birth mother is Jewish, the conversion may not be required. Again, the rabbi can elaborate if this was the case.

Also - I belive that upon reaching Bar/Bat Mitzvah age, a person converted as a child can negate the conversion, since he/she did not agree to it.

Bob

Non Jewish Mother

Author: nikki
Date: 08-01-03 11:38

I am non-Jewish and my husband and I are considering raising our child Jewish. We would like to have a naming ceremony/bris for our child (due in Feb). How difficult is it to have this and the conversion when the mother is not Jewish? To further complicate things, we will be having our baby overseas in Italy.

If anybody can just clue me in even to the local bureaucracy, so that I at least have an idea what to expect, that would be great. Is it basically just some paperwork? Do I have to convert in any way? If anybody knows any reform rabbis in Rome, that would be even better.

Thanks,

nikki

Re: converting adotped children

Author: Scott
Date: 08-13-03 07:23

It is absolutely essential that an adopted child be converted. I was adopted, and my parents converted me, and thank God for that. My Jewishness would be in real question if had not been converted as an infant.

If you value your Jewish identity, you should convert your adopted child, period.

Scott.

Re: converting adopted children

Author: Benjamin
Date: 08-14-03 19:42

There is an excellent book that could be useful to every Jewish adoptive family. It is "Adoption and the Jewish Family" by Shelley Kapnek Rosenberg, published by The Jewish Publication Society (1998). The book covers the range of issues in Jewish adoption in a very readable format.

Re: Welcome to our discussions!

Author: judith
Date: 08-29-03 12:14

Thank you. My daughter is married to a non-jewish gentleman who is the sweetest young man anyone could wish for. They have a son, 9 months old, and are a beautiful couple to watch. my daughter was raised in a traditional jewish home attending a Reform Synagogue with all the rituals and celebrations, etc.. My son-in law was exposed to the Unitarian church, & the Episcopal Church and was not steeped in either. He would be fine with the baby being raised in the Jewish religion, no problem, however, my daughter does not "believe in Religion" and wants no part of the rituals connected to the synagogue. She works on Rosh Hashana and Yom Kippur, unless they are on weekends She loves the traditional feasts of the holidays and has even made seder for his very large multi-religious (or lack thereof) family. His step-mother is proud that her biological father was Jewish but she is a deconess in the Episcopal Church. His biological mother is a Unitarian.. his siblings are non practicing .. Is there any thing that I could say or do to entice my daughter to bring the child and subsequent children up in the Jewish faith? She knows that according to Halachic Law he is Jewish and he is circumcised.. I just feel that a child should be "SOMETHING". In this world of chaos each of us needs to have something to hold on to and be part of.Conversely, my granddaughter (age 17 whom I'm raising) is on a track to become a Reform Rabbi..

Re: Circumcision

Author: judith
Date: 08-29-03 12:30

I think you have a few facts mixed-up.. Women married to circumcised men have FEWER incidences of cervical cancer because there is less place for bacteria to grow and transmit to the women. I am sure that you mean that you are having your son circumcised in a hospital without benefit of the hebrew naming that goes with a ritual circucision and he will be named in church as part of his baptism. therefore he will be raised as a non-jew and in the future. If your wife is Jewish then your children are Jewish under traditional Jewish law. In the reform movement if YOU (the father) are Jewish and you raise the children Jewish, then your children are Jewish. But if you have them baptized they may need to go through conversion if they choose to follow Judaism. Good luck to you and your future family.

Raising A Black Child Jewish

Author: Ezra
Date: 08-30-03 13:16

Hello all. I am currently dating a Catholic woman orginally from Africa. We have dated for the past three years and are considering marriage. She has agreed to raise the children Jewish, but does not want to convert.

My main concern is how will our future children feel being raised Jewish and Black? I don't want to put too much turmoil on my future children and I am worried about how Jewish Communities will receive a black into their synagogue or community (not sure what denomination I am, but it's safe to say not Orthodox).

I am curious if there are others out there who have raised a black child Jewish and how has it gone.

Thanks.

Re: raising a black Jewish child

Author: Estelle
Date: 08-31-03 09:09

For one black Jewish child's perspective, read Rebecca Walker's Black White and Jewish: Autobiography of a Shifting Self.

Re: Circumcision

Author: June
Date: 09-01-03 12:43

I am Catholic, my husband Jewish. After watching close friends (another Interfaith couple --Episcopalian wife and Jewish husband) struggle with this decision and then have a terrible bris experience, we have decided not to circumcise our son (due in 6 weeks). We'd like a simple naming ceremony, but have had difficulty explaining this to Jewish relatives and friends. I strongly suspect that most think this was MY decision, not a joint one. But they didn't see our friends' baby suffering (for three days afterwards, he cried and was unable to breastfeed, in the end he had to got to the Emergency room for dehydration). We love our unborn son and can't imagine welcoming him into the world with kisses, then a week later causing him intentional pain to make other people feel comfortable. My mother-in-law is distraught and insulted as she had 4 sons, all of whom were brit milah. I am not the only non-Jewish daughter-in-law, but one converted a year ago and the other had bothe her sons circumcized. I no longer care about what other people think, but I am sick of the debates. We are thinking about going into seclusion until the 9th day so people will leave us alone.

Re: June's message

Author: Hope
Date: 09-02-03 13:51

Hi June,

I think we must have the same due date, as I too am due in 6 weeks. Ultrasound at 20 weeks indicated it's a girl, but you never know! I know I was relieved to hear it would be another girl b/c I fear a bris ceremony as well. I'm actually the Jewish partner married to a Catholic man. What mother wants to see her child in pain? I dread seeing such a thing in the same way I dread taking my kids for their immunizations. But just like I have to inflict the pain of immunization after immunization on them, I did/do know my child would have to be circumcised. I had thought about doing it in the hospital, but that seemed more harsh since it would be done the first day, and the baby wouldn't even have a chance to establish a feeding schedule. And there's a certain point at which if you wait too long you increase the pain and complications your child is exposed to (meaning if your son wants a circumcision as he gets older, he will need to go to the hospital, and go under anasthesia). If you want to raise your son to live a Jewish life than there's no way around the circumcison. Having a naming ceremony that is usually for girls won't do, although I'm no rabbi, this is just my somewhat informed opinion.

One thing to keep in mind is one bad brit milah doesn't mean they all go poorly. Usually the mohel is more skillful then a physician, and the baby can have a little wine to help (not available in the hospital) and there are some topical pain relievers. Nevertheless, it will hurt, but very, very rarely causes such complications like your friends experienced. It might help you to contact a local synagogue and get recommendations from others who can reliably refer someone highly qualified, who you can talk to well before the big day.

It may be though that you absolutely do not want to circumcise your son and therefore will not do a brit milah. At that point though I think you may also be deciding not to raise your child as a "son of the commandments" ie a Jew, and that's what is especially upsetting to your in-laws.

In the end you are the parents and are in charge of your son's health, welfare, and spiritual path. If you and your husband are on the same page, and have made decisions regarding the ways you will or won't expose him to your religions, then perhaps a sit down meeting with your in-laws to explain your decisions and how you would like them to be respected would be helpful. We did not do that with my in-laws, and I wish we had, as they disapprove of our decision to raise our children Jewish, and fully expected they would be baptised. They were so against our decision most have chosen not to have any contact with my children. I think it might have been helpful to have an upfront discussion with them to get their issues in the open, to assure them of their importance in our children's lives, and to elicit some level of support. And maybe I'm wrong and it wouldn't have changed a thing, but at least you know you will have done all you could to ensure shalom bayit...family peace and harmony!

I wish you the best of luck in the weeks ahead and with your delivery. Becoming a parent completely changes your life, and all for the better (except for that first sleepless month) and would love to hear how this all works out for you.

Re: Welcome to our discussions!

Author: Sam
Date: 10-20-03 08:40

Hi my name is Sam,
I need your help. I have a paper do on Friday the 25th. I need to get som information on the celebrations of a baby's birth. I am not jewish so I don't know anything about the Jewish faith. I want my paper to be truthful so I need help.
Thanks for your time I hope to here from you soon.
Sam

Converting Infants?

Author: Alex
Date: 11-19-03 07:14

I'm getting married to a non Jewish girl. I believe in orthodoxy but do not practice. I also believe that the only way for a person to convert is to do it through an orthodox rabbi. After speaking to a rabbi, I realized that there was no way that she would convert. The rabbi basicaly told me that in order for her to convert, both of us would have to become 100% observant. The only reason that I would want my fiance' to convert is so that we could have jewish children.

...After doing some research I found out that when we have children, we can convert them as infants. My fiance' has no problem with raising our kids jewish...

Would anyone be able to tell me what is the process of converting an infant and how reluctant are the orthodox rabbi's to perfom such a conbversion?

-Thanks,
Alex

Re: bris

Author: Myron
Date: 03-19-04 13:36

What worries me is that circumcision often causes non-Jewish males who are circumcised to blame the Jews. An example is Mel Gibson, circumcised at birth, who evidently agrees with the proposition that the Holocaust either never happened or was a minor event!

Re: 8 days?

Author: Jay
Date: 03-28-04 12:25

In response to Sara's claim that the Mohel 'just stretches out the foreskin' before cutting it away, it isn't quite so simple. The foreskin, if left intact, is almost always sealed down to the head of the penis and only separates over the next 5-10 yrs. This means any circumcision first usually entails tearing the foreskin away from the glans (a little like peeling an orange) before the actually process of taking it off can begin. This is usually accomplished by forcing a blunt instrument under the foreskin and scraping it around. I would imagine if it was someone's job to torture a baby, they couldn't come up with a better method than this!

Re: circumcision

Author: Roy Blake
Date: 05-21-04 11:34

My wife is Jewish. I'm not, but I am circumsized (back when I was born, it was routinely done in Canada, for "health reasons".) So I didn't have the visceral objections that some gentiles have. I guess you don't miss what you've never had. Rather than try to bring in a mohel (there are none in our town), we had our son circumsized in the hospital, then had a baby naming ceremony at the temple. (It doesn't seem to be just for girls in the Reform tradition.) The hospital circumcision seemed to be relatively painless, involving,if I remember correctly, a clamp that caused the unwanted skin to dry out and fall off, eventually. I don't know how my parents would have reacted to a "bris party", but they could hardly object to the circumcision itself, since they'd had me circumcized.

Anyway, it worked for us.

Re: Circumcision

Author: Eve
Date: 07-07-04 14:03

Hi Brenda,

I loved the idea of using the bris to affirm a covenant between your son and you. Maybe you could post a copy of the ceremony on the discussion site?

Eve

Re: Eve

Author: Ronnie Friedland
Date: 07-08-04 09:20

Eve,
I am the editor of InterfaithFamily.com. We published an article by Brenda Platt with a copy of their alternative birth ceremony for their son. You can find it at: http://interfaithfamily.com/article/issue95/platt.phtml .

Hope that helps.

Ronnie Friedland, Editor

Re: baby naming

Author: sue
Date: 07-14-04 11:18

Question:

I am Jewish my husband was raised Catholic,(considers himself more spiritual than religous.) We decided before we got married that we would raise our kids Jewish. We just had a baby boy he is 5 weeks old and have a Jewish baby naming confirmed in the next couple months. However, his dad asked if we could also have a Babtism. We (my husband and I) understand why this would be a conflict but, My husband wants to know the correct way to explain to his Catholic dad why this would be a conflict. Any feedback is appreciated.

Re: Sue's comments

Author: Ronnie Friedland
Date: 07-26-04 09:26

Hi Sue,
I am the editor of InterfaithFamily.com and wanted to let you know that we recently published on article that answers your question. It is by Arlene Chernow and can be found at: Response to Sue in birth ceremonies:
Should we have birth ceremonies in both religions? http://interfaithfamily.com/article/issue134/chernow.phtml

I hope the article helps.

Ronnie Friedland

Re: Circumcision

Author: Jerry
Date: 01-01-05 11:05

I am jewish and have studied the relitgion and other religions. I was orthodox when I was young. There are many ceremonies and customs that were appealing to ancient generations which we do not rely upon today.

Also, who wrote the Bible anyway? At least the Jews admit that it was compiled by scribes. Does anyone today believe that every word in the Bible was a result of an edict from God? Did God somehow determine every word written by the scribes? Perhaps the ten commandments were ordained by God, but little else.

So, every tradition is not still kept, and every word is not a direct commandment from God, since God did not write the book. We only have what the Scribes have recorded. If you believe that the Bible was written by God then you have to adhere to everything, and very few people do that. Most conveniently avoid large portions of the good book for personal reasons and convenience.

To me circumcision is a purely personal decision and should not be dictated by the religion. After all, the religion is not a set of rules which are not really followed in every way.

If you want to circumcise your child, youi should have the right. Have a bris. have fun. Be holy. But if I decide not to circumcise my child that shouldn ot be a burden or a curse in the Jewish religion.

Frankly, I find circumcision to be an ancient custom which had medical value in ancient times when knowledge of hygiene was low. Also, kosher had such value. Today, we do not need these ancient customs. Today they are just remnants of tradition. We do not follow all tradition, and we need not follow the tradition of circumcision.

There are many BAD aspects of circumcision. It is painful to the child. The most sensitive part of the penis becomes exposed, and rubs against clothing. The man has less control over his being stimulated. He can become overstimulated at the wrong time. This causes the sensitive part to become less sensitive. The foreskin is there for a reason. Why did God place the foreskin there merely to have it cut off? The fact that God caused the freskin to grow is more of an edict from God than some few words written down by a few scribes.

In many Aftrican cultures it is traditional to circumcise females, but we reject such tribal ceremonies today. We should do the same for circumcision.

We should make circumcision merely something that is quaint to do if you want that to occur, but not any type of religious requirement.

Jerry

Re: Welcome to our discussions!

Author: Nancy
Date: 01-28-05 07:59

My ex-husband was Italian with an Italian last name. He converted to Judaism before we got married. However, he did not feel confortable in changing his name. When we had children, it was important for me to give my children "Jewish" or Hebrew sounding names to have some sort of Jewish identity in their name. So we named them Rachel and Jonathan.

Re: Circumcision

Author: Felice Morel
Date: 01-28-05 10:38

This was a touchy subject in my family. Although we had not yet made the decision to embrace Judaism in our family, I felt strongly that I wanted my sons to have the option to do so without having to undergo that painful ritual at a later age. When my sons were born, 21 and 23 years ago, circumcision was still a commonly recommended medical practice, so I was able to justify having it done at the hospital, although my husband had very mixed feelings about it. He was raised Polish Catholic, and was among the minority of our generation who did not have this done. He considers the practice barbaric, and akin to the tribal practice of mutilating girls' genitals - he would never have agreed to a religious ceremony performed by a non-medical moyel.

As we learn more about the health and medical issues regarding circumcision, I would like to believe that at least the Reform movement can treat this the same way they address Kashrut - a matter of personal choice.

problems with uncircumcized men...1st hand witness

Author: Julia
Date: 01-28-05 12:06

Just wanted to add my two cents here. I am a Jewish gal who is 25 weeks pregnant with a boy(!) Although I am not sure we are going to have a traditional 'bris' ceremony using the mohel, I would like to a) circumsize my son in the hospital and b) have a baby naming at 8 days. I want him to be welcomed to the world. In response to some of the posts I have read here, I will only use a rabbi who will fully let my in-laws participate (just like our wedding...)

About circumcision- I had an Italian boyfriend from age 20-25. He was uncircumcized. Besides any religious issues, being with him CONVINCED me that this was not a great way to go through life.

#1) Given the extra flap of skin, the need to constantly keep the area covered my the skin clean is ESSENTIAL. Literally, if he didn't carefully clean the area every day it would STINK (sorry to be graphic). Luckily, he was a scrupulously clean boy.

#2) He told me that when he was in high school, he ripped the foreskin during sex. He said it was excruciatingly painful. Even when he was with me (years later) he was very careful during sex for fear of ripping again.

Anyway, as for me, that was all I needed to hear to make this decision for my little boy!

Naming our children

Author: Jen
Date: 01-28-05 12:09

Naming children is a blend of families and traditions. And one WONDERFUL aspect about being in an Interfaith family, is that as the Jewish partner, I was lucky enough to be able to choose BOTH our children's Hebrew names. My husband and I each named a child with their English names - I after my Maternal grandmother, and he after his paternal grandfather and maternal grandfather. BUT I chose BOTH Hebrew names. I was able to honor more members of my family, my paternal and maternal grandfathers and my maternal grandmother.

There is always a GOOD way to look at the compromises we make as interfaith families, and I think this was one compromise that I never even had to make....

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