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Christian Perspective On Sin - Page 1
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Author: InterfaithFamily.com Editor (---.home.net)
Date: 10-04-00 13:20
Post your responses to Rev. Philip C. Jacobs' "Sin and Atonement: A Christian Perspective" |
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Author: Sara (---.milwaukee.k12.wi.us)
Date: 10-09-00 21:15
If this is supposed to be a site to encourage people to make "Jewish choices," then why are we inviting Christian clergy to come here and push their theology? Isn't there enough of that out there already? Why publish it here? |
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| response to Sara |
Author: Ronnie Friedland, Editor (---.home.net)
Date: 10-10-00 10:53
Dear Sara,
Our purpose in publishing an article on the Christian approach to sin and atonement was to help readers in interfaith marriages understand the difference in approach between Jews and Christians and, therefore, differences in their own approaches which might not have been clear to them. We paired that article with one by Ann Moline on the Jewish approach to sin and atonement.
While our purpose is to provide a link to the Jewish community, we also respect other religions and religious choices.
Thanks for contributing to our discussions,
Ronnie Friedland, Editor |
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| for Sara |
Author: a Catholic (---.proxy.aol.com)
Date: 10-15-00 09:54
Stating a viewpoint is not the same as "pushing...theology." In this country interfaith marriages are usually between a Jew and a Christian. This site does a great job informing the Christian partner about Jewish perspectives on various things, from sin and atonement to weddings, mourning, and childrearing; why shouldn't it provide the same service to the Jewish partner by making clear certain aspects of traditional Christian thought? I think that information is always better than assumptions, especially with issues as touchy as that of sin. |
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| for "a Catholic" |
Author: Sara (---.milwaukee.k12.wi.us)
Date: 10-15-00 20:23
If I thought I needed to learn more about the Catholic view of sin, I would visit a Catholic site. Surely anyone clever enough to find this site is clever enough to do a search for Catholic sites as well. This site purports to encourage "Jewish" choices. |
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| Sara's response to "a Catholic" |
Author: Jennifer (also a Catholic) (---.microsoft.com)
Date: 11-14-00 20:09
With all due respect, I am very bothered by Sara's reply below.
Perhaps I am naive and misunderstanding the purpose of this site, but by the URL of the site, this is an interfaith site. That means to me that information and discussion for both parties of an interfaith relationship belongs here. I was really hoping that this would be the first site to truly be "inclusive" when using the word "interfaith."
Obviously, the preference of those running this site is that the family would choose to incorporate at least some of the Jewish practices in their life (the more the better); however, that does not mean that there isn't room to explore and explain the practices of other traditions.
If I am incorrect, and there isn't that leeway, why not just label this as just another Jewish web site? With a slight twist on Sara's words, if all I wanted was Jewish theology thrown at me, I'd go find a Jewish web site or talk to a local rabi.
I would really like to hear the editors speak to this.
Thank you,
--Jennifer |
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| Jennifer |
Author: Sara (---.milwaukee.k12.wi.us)
Date: 11-14-00 22:50
It seems to me as a Jew that I am already bombarded with Christian theology wherever I go. Does Christianity really need "equal" time here? Perhaps we can look forward in coming weeks to seeing detailed information here about how to celebrate the approaching Christian holidays, too. |
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Author: Ronnie Friedland, Editor (---.home.net)
Date: 11-15-00 09:14
Dear Sara and Jennifer, as well as other readers,
Our magazine is an interfaith site--for interfaith families--with the goal of helping interfaith families with the particular issues that arise in their lives. Part of helping interfaith families is helping each member understand the other, and that includes understanding the other person's religion and background. Therefore, I feel it is appropriate to present different religions' views on particular issues, as a means of enhancing communication and discussion among family members. Many people have inaccurate or incomplete understandings of other people's religions.
InterfaithFamily.com is published by a Jewish organization, Jewish Family & Life!, and part of our goal is to reach out to interfaith families and welcome them to the Jewish community. We do encourage families to choose one religion for their children, and we hope that it will be Judaism--but even if it isn't Judaism, our philosophy is that choosing one religion is in the best interests of the children.
And another part of our goal is to encourage the Jewish community to be more welcoming to interfaith families.
I hope that clarifies our approach for readers.
All the best,
Ronnie Friedland, Managing Editor |
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| Sin and atonement |
Author: Bryce (208.5.125.---)
Date: 04-03-01 12:47
One day, quite by accident, I overheard the Rabbi and
his neighbor, who came over and handed him a listing
of questions that the neighbor wanted answers to. One
of the questions was, not surprisingly, how do Jews
know that they have atonement for their sins if they
don't have a blood sacrifice (After all, Hebrews 9:22
in the Christian Bible states: "without the shedding
of blood there is no forgiveness of sins.") The Rabbi
grinned and said, "Well, for starters you should read
Hosea, chapter 14, verses 2-3."
When I read the Rabbi's suggestion, I called one of
the former leaders of the "Messianic" congregation
where I began about 5 years earlier to see how this
fit for him. Ira had been bestowed the title
"Messianic Rabbi" and moved out of state. I asked Ira
how he could explain this passage that reads:
"Return Israel to your G-d for you have stumbled in
your iniquity [sins]. Take words with you and return
to HaShem; say to Him, 'May you forgive all iniquity
and accept good, let our lips substitute for bulls'."
(*Note: HaShem, literally meaning "The Name," is a
Jewish way to say God.)
Ira was quick to say that I need to read it according
to the way that it is rendered in the New
International Version translation: "Forgive all our
sins and receive us graciously that we may offer the
fruit of our lips." Ira explained that the word
"bulls" had no place in this passage and to even
suggest that forgiveness in the absence of a blood
sacrifice was possible had me walking on "thin ice."
Since I had been studying Hebrew for nearly two years
at that time, I had to point out that the passage uses
the word "parim" (pey, resh, yod, mem) which means
"bulls," but Ira would have no part of that. He
contended that the word meant '"fruit" (the word fruit
is 'pri', whereas the word for bulls is 'par'; similar
but distinctly different). But, when I pointed out the
impossibility of what he was saying because of the
accompanying vowelization, "Rabbi Ira" paused. He was
unable to reply and told me that I was in danger of
losing my salvation. He then ended our conversation.
Being educated to the level of receiving the title
"Messianic Rabbi," it was clear that Ira had plainly
lied to me and was caught in the lie (Note: The
correct plural for the Hebrew word "pri," which means
"fruit" in English, is "Payrot" [feminine], which is
not "Pareem" [masculine].).
Shortly after that, I began looking to see if there
were more passages like the one above and was shocked
to find that Exodus 30:16, 32:9-14, Hosea 6:6, Numbers 31:50,
Proverbs 14:2, and Daniel 4:24 all
spoke of atonement that comes without any kind of blood
sacrifice. After that discovery, I uttered to myself,
"go figure."
===============================================
Here are a few more examples about the non-necessity of
blood for the purpose of atonement:
What if someone cannot afford an animal to sacrifice, is atonement
closed to him?
Leviticus 5:11-13. But if he is not able to bring two turtledoves, or two
young pigeons, then he who sinned shall bring for his offering the tenth
part of an ephah of fine flour for a sin offering.... Then shall he bring it to
the priest, and the priest shall take his handful of it, a memorial part of it,
and burn it on the altar, according to the offerings made by fire to the
Lord; it is a sin offering. And the priest shall make an atonement for him
in regard to his sin that he has sinned in one of these, and it shall be
forgiven him; and the remnant shall be the priest’s, as a meal offering.
(NO BLOOD).
Jonah Chapter 1:2; 3:5-6, 10 ==
Arise, go to Nineveh, that great city, and cry against it;
for their wickedness has come up before me....
And the people of Nineveh believed God, and proclaimed a
fast, and put on sackcloth, from the greatest of them to
the least of them. And word came to the king of Nineveh,
and he arose from his throne, and he took off his robe,
and covered himself with sackcloth, and sat in ashes....
And God saw their doings, that they turned from their evil
way; and God repented of the evil, which he had said that
he would do to them; and he did not do it. (NO BLOOD).
In most cases in the Bible, stories of the forgiveness of sin involve
genuine, heart-wrenching repentance, which is really what Hashem
desires most.
Psalm 51:19 ==
The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit;
a broken and contrite heart, O God, you will not despise.
(NO BLOOD).
Look at the story of David and the matter of Uriah. David is confronted with his sin, repents and is forgiven.
II Samuel 12:13.
And David said to Nathan, I have sinned against the Lord. And Nathan said to David, The Lord also has put away your sin; you shall not die. (NO BLOOD).
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| enlightenment |
Author: Helpless (---.gst.pe.net)
Date: 05-14-01 22:17
What is the difference between Catholic views of sin and those of the Jewish perspective |
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| Ignore, this is just a test. |
Author: IFF editor (---.ne.mediaone.net)
Date: 12-18-01 10:48
Ignore, this is just a test. |
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Author: Sam (---.ivicm.com)
Date: 03-12-02 11:58
I figure Billy Graham would be a reliable source as to a Christian perspective
of sin. Here is what he had to say:
A recently released transcript of goings-on in Nixon's office has publicized
some disturbing openly anti-Semitic remarks. The conversation was among 500
hours of Nixon tapes released by the National Archives. Most were recorded
between January and June 1972.
In President Nixon's Oval Office, Reverend Billy Graham didn't mince words
in describing his feelings about Jewish people and the media: "This
stranglehold has got to be broken or this country's going down the drain."
Now that his comments were portrayed for all to see, the 83-year-old
evangelist apologized for his words spoken 30 years ago and captured on an
audio tape.
"Although I have no memory of the occasion, I deeply regret comments I
apparently made in an Oval Office conversation with President Nixon ... some
30 years ago," Graham said. "They do not reflect my views and I sincerely
apologize for any offense caused by the remarks."
In the conversation with Nixon, the evangelist expressed disdain for what he
saw as Jewish domination of the media.
"You believe that?" Nixon says in response.
"Yes, sir," says Graham.
"Oh boy. So do I," Nixon agrees, then says: "I can't ever say that, but I
believe it."
"No, but if you get elected a second time, then we might be able to do
something," Graham says. Later he continues, "A lot of Jews are great
friends of mine."
"They swarm around me and are friendly to me. Because they know that I am
friendly to Israel and so forth. But they don't know how I really feel about
what they're doing to this country, and I have no power and no way to handle
them," Graham says.
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| .To be , or , Not to be - Accurate.? |
Author: .Bob (---.dialup.mindspring.com)
Date: 03-13-02 13:08
_ Billy Graham , is hardly an accurate source of anything that is , so-called Christian. __ The Accurate source is , the Christian Greek Scriptures , & , the writers there of , namely : Matthew , James , Mark , Luke , Peter , Jude , & , John. __ |
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Author: Sam (---.ivicm.com)
Date: 03-13-02 15:34
Bob,
It's *too easy* to say that the scriptures are the accurate source.
One needs to find *modern-day* teachers to reflect that accuracy.
I thought Billy Graham ought to be a pretty good candidate, given
his good reputation.
As an aside, I believe that Matthew wrote his book in Hebrew, not Greek. |
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| .Graham's , Empty Speeches... |
Author: .Bob. (---.dialup.mindspring.com)
Date: 03-14-02 14:25
_ Sam...
__ It is easy to say the Scriptures are the accurate source , because , they say so themselves. __ Men & women , call *Themselves* Christian (& , other things). __ At times , on the slimmest of knowledge , of the Scriptures. __ Graham , can provide , the slimmest of knowledge , as do others. __ However , the Scriptures show , extensive knowledge of them , is not a Graham strong point , as the Scriptures are the measuring device , of his knowledge. __ The character references of his following , & others , will not fill in the deficit of what he does not know , or care to know. __ __ __ __ __ __ Aside : There is evidence to indicate that Matthew originally wrote his Gospel in the popular Hebrew of the time & later Translated it into , koi~ne' Greek , some of it is , (The Ecclesiastical History of Eusebius Pamphilus , Book III , chap. 39 , & , Book VI , chap. 25) , etc. , etc.. __ __ |
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Author: Sam (---.ivicm.com)
Date: 03-14-02 16:36
Bob,
You just argued that since the Scriptures claimed that it is accurate, then it is
accurate. I need not comment on that.
I won't dispute that the Scriptures are accurate (well, at least MY Scriptures), but
it's still "too easy" to call them "the Accurate Source". One must also find modern
day expositors who best explain them. Perhaps you find Martin Luther (you're probably just as aware as I am of his "character references") to be accurate? Maybe you think that you a superior human being than each one of Billy Graham's followers.
<> All you people out there reading Matthew in English: you're getting a
translation of a translation.
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| sam |
Author: carol (207.106.229.---)
Date: 03-15-02 11:58
How about Mother Teresa? I find her to be a pretty good source for a Christian perspective.
For people who are actually card-carrying Christian theologians, how about Paul Tillich or Krister Stendahl?
Seriously, first of all, nothing in what you quoted from Graham that says anything about the Christian perspective on sin that is being discussed here.
Second, there are as many perspectives on a given theological issue within Christianity and within Judaism. If all you are looking for is an opportunity to bash or tweek Christians, there a lot of better places on the net than this board to do it. |
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Author: Sam (---.ivicm.com)
Date: 03-15-02 13:10
"First of all, nothing in what you quoted from Graham that says
anything about the Christian perspective on sin that is being
discussed here. "
\ Oh, I thought the topic was on Christians and sinning. Oops, my bad. ;-)
Second, there are as many perspectives on a given theological issue
within Christianity and within Judaism.
\ I would never deny that. Some of those perspectives might even be
intellectually honest.
If all you are looking for is an opportunity to bash or tweek Christians, there a
lot of better places on the net than this board to do it.
\ I wasn't bashing ChristianS. Just that one Christian by the name of Graham.
Well, okay, maybe Luther a bit, too. |
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| Why this discussion? |
Author: Susan (---.as12.nwbl0.wi.voyager.net)
Date: 03-15-02 13:11
I agree with Carol about the silliness of the arguing going on here. First there is the question of whether Billy Graham is a Christian or not. Or is Mother Theresa the only person in the world who has the right to call herself a true Christian? How about Martin Luther King, Jr.? Was he a Christian? Was Martin Luther? It can get pretty ridiculous, all right. But then again, isn't the very presence of this discussion board an invitation to people to discuss Christianity, no matter how silly they get in the process? If people shouldn't be discussing their reactions to Christianity and its doctrines here, then why does this board exist? |
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| ."too easy"... |
Author: .Bob. (---.dialup.mindspring.com)
Date: 03-15-02 16:33
.Sam ;
__ I do not see why it is - too easy - to call the Scriptures , "the accurate source". __ Manuscript evidence is abundant , & , appreciation of the reliability of the Scriptures is greatly enhanced when it is realized that , By Comparison , there are only Very Few extant Manuscripts of the works of - classical - secular writers (like Plato & the like) , & , none of these are original , autograph manuscripts , ether. __ Though they are only copies made centuries after the death of the authors , present-day scholars accept such Late copies as sufficient evidence of the authenticity of the text , in the secular world , of literature. __ __ __ On the other hand , the great Yahweh God said ; he would assure that his writings put forth through men of his choice would be looked after by Himself , & , that the minions of mankind would not be able , to change , modify , or in affect , render them unrecognizable in context , or meaning , from his original presentation. __ I would say he has done as exhalent job of doing so , for he is the master of Language & translation of his thoughts poses him , no problem. __ Therefore his works are the Measuring Device of modern-day expositors who tender an explanation of the contents. __ Modern-day expositors ether measure-up , or do not , measure-up ; to the task , by what is in His works , & , in fact their knowledge of them. __ __ __ __ __ Aside ; _ In what way , am I too consider Martin Luther (1483-1546) , to be accurate , or , not accurate.? __ __ |
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Author: Sam (---.ivicm.com)
Date: 03-18-02 12:22
When I stated that it is - too easy - to call the Scriptures , "the accurate source", I meant the following:
Just as Bob calls Scriptures the accurate source, so, too, do most followers of Billy Graham, whom Bob calls into question based on their character references and grammar ability. (OK, I threw in that last part about grammar.)
Bob: "On the other hand , the great Yahweh God said ; he would assure that his writings put forth through men of his choice would be looked after by Himself"
I did a google.com search under "Errors King James Bible" and, after clicking around, decided that this version was not one that God had in mind when He said He'd look after it Himself.
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| .Clicking around.. |
Author: .Bob. (---.dialup.mindspring.com)
Date: 03-19-02 08:40
__ Sam ;
There are over 1,700 Manuscripts , of portions of the Hebrew Scriptures extant today in various libraries. __ The vast majority contain the Masoretic text , & , are of the 10th Century C.E. , or , thereafter. __ According to one calculation , there are over 4,600 extant Manuscript copies , whole or in part of the Christian Greek Scriptures. __ Additionaly , there are over 8,000 extant Manuscripts , of , versions of the Christian Scriptures in Latin , & , about 1,000 more in other languages. __ To know any Scriptural Translation , one needs to know why the Scriptures were written. __ Yahweh God , its Auther , caused them to be written to reveal himself to mankind & to express his purpose. __ Yahweh became the Auther so that we could have the thoughs of God , so we could know the purpose of man , so we could know the destiny of both wicked & righteous men & so we can come to know man's Creator , Yehwah. __ The purpose of Scriptural translation , then , is to take these thoughts of God , originally written in , Hebrew , Aramaic , & Greek , & put them into the common languages of today. __ Scriptural translation makes God's book a living book. __ Seekers of the truth of the matter there-in are not stumbled by misrepresentation , from any quarter , especially in this day in age , with the abundants of materials at hand , & Yahweh's declaration of interest in the matter , of right knowledge , being presented. __ __ __ Happy , "Clicking Around"... |
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Author: Sam (---.ivicm.com)
Date: 03-19-02 12:02
Thank you, Bob, for your history of manuscripts. Unfortunately, it is totally
irrelevant to our discussion. In fact, I bet I could've gotten the same history
lesson from a Billy Graham follower. The key sentence is my second sentence
in posting # 23.
Boy, I was only trying to belittle one man, Reverend Graham, because of his bad statement about Jews. But Bob has no qualms about belittling Graham AND his
followers and admirers. Bob doesn't see these people, apparently, as being
seekers of the truth, for, after all, "Seekers of the truth of the matter there-in are
not stumbled by misrepresentation."
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| .graham crackers... |
Author: .Bob. (---.dialup.mindspring.com)
Date: 03-20-02 15:30
_ Thank you Sam , for pointing out the irrelevant part of the post. __ I was wondering why a , Google.com , search on , "Errors King James Bible" , was worth mentioning (by you) in the first place , but it is a good place too Start or Temporally Stop by , while "clicking around" , when one has any interest in Scriptural reasearch & accurate knowledge. __ Right off hand though , I can see where one has to Quize , many a Graham type follower , too even find one that has basic 101 Manuscript Awareness , so your bet , might be a bad bet. __ __ __ __ __ I though you did a good Job of making Graham - smaller - then he might be , because of his bad statement. __ But , my idea , on the Graham matter , however , is not in making him or his followers - smaller - human beings , because of their political likes or dislikes. __ It is in pointing out that Graham's , "knowledge" of , "So-Called-Christianity" is (short , inaccurate , not up to par) , & is a part of the Make-it-Up as you go along philosophy that has been , especially , in action from the 2nd Century C.E. , till today , & has made "Christinity" - into - "So-Called-Christinity". __ In short , Graham represents , "So-Called-Christinity" , but not , "Christianity". __ The many Manuscripts that have come to light over the last 200 hundred years , & , the Increase of knowledge of ancient language usage & meaning , show it to be so. __ But only to those who Seek truth in the matter , & , pursue truth for its own sake. __ As such , those who stand before Graham in a stadium or in a building , have the Opportunity , too go Around him , in knowledge , & actually become - more aware - of the truth of the matter then is. __ If they continue to look to him for accurate knowledge , or those on the outside , continue too point too him as a display of accurate knowledge , that is (their problem , their bungle , their acceptance of misrepresentation) , in the matter of truth. __ __ __ __ __ Happy , "clicking around"... |
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Author: Sam (---.ivicm.com)
Date: 03-20-02 17:31
Thank you Carol, for proffering some Christian theologians. Bob, would you like to mention one or two you find reliable? (Try to mention one who writes on the subject of this forum.) |
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People who attend and worship at a given synagogue.
God. In traditional Jewish circles, it is forbidden to write or say God\'s name, so God is typically written with the vowel (o) replaced by a hyphen.
"The Name" in Hebrew. Used as a substitute for the Hebrew name for God, which religious Jews are forbidden from uttering outside of prayer.
Spiritual leader and teacher. Typically, but not always, leads a congregation.
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