Coalition To Fight Intermarriage - Page 1

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Coalition to Fight Intermarriage?

Author: InterfaithFamily.com Editor (---.reonbroadband.com)
Date: 03-08-01 13:47

What do you think about the group of Jewish leaders who want to promote in-marriage?

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intermarriage

Author: brad (---.lifespan.org)
Date: 03-14-01 09:30

The practical end of their message is true---that parents who share the same religion are more likely to raise their kid in that religion and more likely to be observant. But, I tend to agree with Dr. mayer, that in some ways the effort is laughable. First, Outreach does work fo significant numbers, even if a majority of intermarried ar elost to Judaism. More Outreach probably will work more. Second, most Jews want it both ways...that is total acceptance and integration into American society----if they TRULY want that then there is nO way that there will not be some intermarriage. This actually could be an argument in favor of the ultra-Orthdox lifestyle.

The other aspect that is totally true is "Why Judaism?" Christianity and other religions teach values. They all have beautiful rituals. All ethnic groups have a deep cultural history. These levels are TOO superficial to keep people attracted to Judaism. What is the imperative of judaism? I dont know either...it has to be found and promulgated.

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Imperative...

Author: Bobby (---.tnt30.lax3.da.uu.net)
Date: 03-16-01 08:56

Without the contributions of Jews this world would be far less fortunate...in fact without 'tikkun olam' {the repair of the world} the world it would be a real disaster. Mark Twain once said..."All things are mortal but the Jew; all other forces pass, but he remains".

It might be comforting to believe that Jews were selected from among all other peoples as some kind of divine acknowledgement of their excellence. But Jewish sages tell the story somewhat differently. In the Midrash, G_D goes to all he nations of the world and asks them to accept His commandments. Every one of them ask first for the details. What does He demand from them? When given the specifics- things such as not stealing, killing, and adultry- they beg off; such laws would interfere with their lifestyles. Only the Jews were willing to accept. That say the rabbis, makes them not the chosen people, but rather the choosing people.

Bobby

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Author: H. Berman (---.dsl.broadviewnet.net)
Date: 03-16-01 14:50

For a compelling rationale for living a Jewish life, see "The Nine Questions People Ask About Judaism." Whether or not you agree with everything in the book, it provides strong arguments for being Jewish. Brad's (Message No. 2) posting, and many others that appear on this site, seem to suggest that there is a choice to be made between full Jewish observance and involvement on the one hand and full integration into American life on the other. Perhaps people have already forgotten a man named Joe Lieberman. Whether it is acknowledged or not, he represents a powerful challenge to the myth promulgated by some liberal Jews that one cannot be both fully observant (as traditionally defined) and integrally involved in mainstream American society. Why be Jewish? Joe Lieberman is called by his colleagues (many of whom are themselves religious) the "moral conscience of the Senate". Anyone who looks closely at Senator Lieberman quickly realizes that his virtues and political effectiveness are BECAUSE of his strong Jewish observance, not in spite of it. Lieberman is not an exception, only the most visible example. There are many doctors, lawyers, business executives, computer consultants, etc. who have followed the same path.

This is not meant to be a plug for Orthodox Judaism (many thoughtful and serious Jews, in-married and inter-married, exist in all the movements). It is meant to point out that there are good reasons to practice Judaism. And as a Jew married to a Christian, I want to be (and should be) accepted by Jewish institutions too. However, if those Jewish institutions believe in the value of Judaism, then why would they view intermarriage as a virtue? A fact of life-yes. A fact of life that demands clear thought and a sense of welcoming to those who have chosen this path-yes. But something to be celebrated as a wonderful thing for the continuation of Judaism? The statistics on Jewish continuity among interfaith couples vs. same faith couples do not in any way suggest that more interfaith marriages will foster Jewish continuity--quite the opposite. Of course there are many of us who are intermarried who are attempting to create a strong Jewish environment for our children. And of course we all should have a place at the table. But I would hope that those Jewish leaders who have strong convictions about the value of preserving (and who knows, even expanding) Judaism, would stand by those convictions. If they didn't, then I would have to conclude that maybe there really isn't much worth preserving.

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Author: H. Berman (---.dsl.broadviewnet.net)
Date: 03-16-01 14:54

I forgot in my last message to mention the authors of "The Nine Questions That People Ask About Judaism." They are Dennis Prager and Joseph Telushkin.

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imperative

Author: brad (---.lifespan.org)
Date: 03-16-01 17:33

Joe Lieberman is an opportunistic hippocrite---he's not the conscience of anything!

Anyhow, even if you like old Joe, there are many great examples of religious people of all ilks who "move the world" and serve as examples to us all. How is this unique to Judaism?

Likewise, Tikun Olam is hardly uniquely Jewish. Christians live for this.

It is nice that Jews do it too, but I tend to argue that Judaism is having a hard time today because if it has a unique message, it sure is not transmitting it!

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message

Author: Mina (---.rutgers.edu)
Date: 03-16-01 18:25

I agree that every religion transmits messages of faith and compassion. But there certainly are differences among them, and I think that different individuals are more or less suited in temperament and beliefs to different religious systems. I also reject the notion that Judaism is having trouble today because it doesn't have a unique message. Judaism is having trouble because: 1) our numbers have been winnowed down through murder and persecution, 2) we have a highly educated population that is also highly influenced by the Enlightenment and therefore likely to reject claims of uniquely revealed truth, and 3) we don't proselytize. Catholics and Protestants don't have to have a unique message to survive. They've got numbers and they have large numbers of people who believe them to be literally true.

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Oh Bradly Boy!

Author: Bobby (---.tnt8.lax3.da.uu.net)
Date: 03-17-01 07:47

Now that you have our attention...the reality check is that without Judaism there is no Christianity or Islam for that matter. And "Tikkun Olam" is Hebrew not Greek. If you prefer another religion to Judaism that's ok with every Jew in the world...Judaism is loved and respected by its adherents. As Mr. Berman clearly pointed out Judaism is sifting and sorting through many issues and I agree with him and hope for his marriage the best as well as the children to be accpted by the Jewish community. Brad you little snot you would'nt make a pimple on Joe Lieberman's toches. Brad who?

G_D bless all the people on this site trying hard to make an intermarriage work and G_D bless their children.

Bobby

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Author: H. Berman (---.dsl.broadviewnet.net)
Date: 03-19-01 10:34

The problem with Brad's little diatribe on "Why Judaism?" is that one could ask that question of any religion and then conclude that there is no good rationale for that religion. (Putting aside for the moment traditional Christianity's claims as the sole provider of salvation) one could just as easily ask Why Christianity? or Why Islam? After all, don't religions other than Christianity and Islam (i.e. Judaism) teach values, the importance of faith, etc. The point is that each does it in a unique way. As one who has delved deeper into Judaism the past few years, I can say that the answer to Brad's question of "Why Judaism?" is not to be found in petty theorizing about Judaism vs. other religions but in making the journey through Judaism by LIVING IT.

As for Brad's petty (and most inaccurate) shot at Joe Lieberman, I think it proves my point that Joe Lieberman does represent a challenge to the liberal Jewish community. Rather than addressing the fact that Joe Lieberman's way of life has not hindered him in any way in the secular world (my point), Brad simply chose to ignore the issue and take a shot at the source of the challenge. Hopefully, the level of dialogue on interfaith relationships and Judaism in general can be raised a few notches above this.

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Author: brad (---.lifespan.org)
Date: 03-19-01 17:17

1)Im not liberal OR Jewish. I admired Joe Lieberman as a senator though I am a centrist Republican. He made such clear reversals in his VP campaign that it went beyond aquiescing to the #1 guy on the ticket. It seriously compromised his integrity. But I didnt intend to slip into another rehash of that divisive campaign (OK, go on and insult Bush..Im not a great admirer of his either).

2) Of course my argument could apply to any religion, but this conversation was about Judaism. I didnt intend to insult. I wanted to point out that in today's open society, people may have trouble discerning a distinct message in Judaism that makes them say "aha, Ill stick with this" when other dominant religions may have the same "message"---not trying to deride Jewish history, culture,etc. Just trying to examine the sociology of the intermarriage issue.

3) Mina--your argument is VERY accurate HISTORICALLY to say why Jewish numbers are down (persecution,etc.), but we're talking about de facto SELF-winnowing through intermarriage. No Nazi is forcing Jews into these marriages, or forcing them NOT to affiliate. Also, Im sure you did not intend insult, but your comment of Jews being educated and therefore not chosing "revealed truth" is a real dig at Islam and Christianity (especially Catholicism and fundamentalist Protestant groups)---of course many of history's great educated people, as well as current well-educated average people adhere avidly to these religions.Also, Orthodox judaism DOES believ in revealed truth (Torah, written and oral)...so you're not saying much good about them either)

As for the classless ad hominem insults...well...

Let me rephrase myself. Lets say you had to convince a marginally identifying Jew to become more involved religiously and culturally---what would be the gist of what you say?

InterfaithFamily.com Editor wrote:
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What do you think about the group of Jewish leaders who want to promote in-marriage?

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Hmmm....

Author: Bobby (---.tnt31.lax3.da.uu.net)
Date: 03-20-01 02:46

Wow! We would never guessed that Brad is not Jewish...

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Author: brad (---.lifespan.org)
Date: 03-20-01 09:45

Jews dont have a monopoly on knowledge of Judaism. Be aware of this when you deal with educated non-Jews.

InterfaithFamily.com Editor wrote:
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What do you think about the group of Jewish leaders who want to promote in-marriage?

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Author: H. Berman (---.dsl.broadviewnet.net)
Date: 03-20-01 13:01

Brad asks a good question (message #10): "Lets say you had to convince a marginally identifying Jew to become more involved religiously and culturally---what would be the gist of what you say?" I think this was my point about living Judaism rather than talking about it (message # 9). Although some people choose a religion purely on an intellectual basis, most people choose it because it "works" for them. And often that involves the person experiencing someone who wonderfully models their religion. One could try to convince a marginally affiliated Jew to become more involved by explaining to them why Judaism is a fulfilling path. But most people I know who have chosen greater involvement with Judaism has done so because they have encountered others who are deeply involved in their faith and they like what they see and what they experience by sharing in it.

I suppose Brad would say that that doesn't answer the question because people of all religions can serve as good role models. True enough. But it misses the point. To put the shoe on the other foot, a far more convincing argument for Catholicism than to talk about doctrine would be to point to someone like Mother Teresa. I suppose a lapsed Catholic could simply say in response that there are people like that in other religions, or question whether Mother Teresa couldn't have done the same thing if she were something other than Catholic. In other words, they could make the same argument Brad is making about Judaism. However, Mother Teresa was still who she was because of her Catholicism. She might have achieved as much, but she would have been different if she had chosen a different path.

Judaism clearly is a different path. I would answer Brad's question by saying to the unaffiliated Jew: try it and spend some time around others who are living it. Could they try something else instead? Sure. But most unaffiliated Jews are choosing between Judaism and nothing, not between Judaism and something else.

Now if Brad still needs an actual argument for Judaism, here's one: Jews comprise such a tiny percentage of the population. Yet their contributions in every area (including religion) throughout history far far exceed their numbers and are, in proportion to their population greater than any other religion. I do not say this to in any way denigrate any other world religion, all of which have adherents who have made signficant contributions to the world. I say this to point out that there must be something truly worthwhile in Judaism to have caused these kinds of way out of proportion achievements.

But don't take my word for it; you could also ask someone like the Dali Lama. In the early 1990s, the Dali Lama convened with a group of Jewish religious leaders from across the Jewish spectrum (see Rodger Kamenetz' book, "The Jew in the Lotus"). The Dali Lama was seeking an answer to the question of how to preserve Tibetan Buddhism amidst overwhelming political circumstances. Of all the world religions, he chose to meet with representatives of Judaism. He posed one simple question to them: "What is your secret?"

Many learned non-Jewish observers (Tolstoy, Mark Twain, Pascal, etc.) have asked this very question.

As to Brad's response to message No. 11, "Jews dont have a monopoly on knowledge of Judaism. Be aware of this when you deal with educated non-Jews.", he is absolutely right. However, I think the author of message no. 11 was commenting not on Brad's knowledge, merely on his sense of perspective.

Finally, without taking anything away from the many people who are intermarried and also knowledgeable about Judaism and involved in Judaism, it is a statistical fact that people who are less involved in Judaism (i.e. not very knowledgeable and/or not very involved) intermarry in higher numbers. How could it be any other way? If people have not experienced their religion and know little about it (or have been given a spiritless and superficial Jewish experience and so think they know something about it even if they don't), then of course they have no basis to consider either involvement in Jewish life or how involvement in Jewish life might affect (positively or negatively) and intermarriage. This is why, as I originally said, all Jews need to at least acquire some knowledge and live Judaism a little before making a decision. Only then can their decision be an informed one and can their choice really be a choice.

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Author: brad (---.lifespan.org)
Date: 03-20-01 13:35

H. Berman-

That's quite a thoughtful response. You bring up legitimate, practical arguments, although it may just feed the fire of uninvolved saying that it just proves that all the religions are the same if used to live a good life (which I suppose is at least partially true).

You also get at an important issue. MANY of today's intermarrieds, almost especially in areas of high Jewish concentration, are INVOLVED, KNOWLEDGEABLE Jews who still intermarry. If this group wants to end intermarriage, they need to look at that group first and figure out "why"----even if they are a minority of intermarried they represent a big shift in the dynamic of intermarriage.

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Author: H. Berman (---.dsl.broadviewnet.net)
Date: 03-20-01 17:02

Brad,

You bring up an important and thoughtful point. But I believe it would be fairer to say that many of today's AFFILIATED intermarrieds are involved and knowledgeable. I have nothing scientific on which to base this, but in my experience many intermarried Jews who are involved and knowledgeable became so (or at least more so) after and in response to their intermarriage. I suppose some might use (and have used) this as an argument FOR intermarriage.

There is a small group of Jews who intermarried (where the non-Jewish spouse never converted) and were religiously (as opposed to merely culturally, ethnically, socially) knowledgeable, committed and involved before their marriage. And I don't want to duck the issue because I think you're right that those who oppose intermarriage need to look seriously at that group, even if they are a minority.

Still, of all the people who intermarry, the Jews who fall into that category are the most likely to create a substantive, spiritual and stimulating Jewish upbringing for their children and therefore are not nearly as much of a concern to the issue of Jewish continuity. It is the overwhelming number of unaffiliated and/or unknowledgeable Jews that represent the greatest challenge. As one Rabbi put it in the context of Christian missionaries, the biggest challenge to Jewish life today is not Jews for Jesus, but Jews for Nothing.

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Brad's reply

Author: Mina (---.rutgers.edu)
Date: 03-20-01 18:09

Hi, Brad. Thanks for your response. First things first. I absolutely in no way meant to say either that: 1) people of other religions are not educated, or 2) that being highly educated is superior. Considering myself a religious person (and also a product of higher education), I don't necessarily delight in the jettisoning of religion that often (I think) accompanies education. It's just a statistical fact that Jews are more likely than members of other religions in this country to have graduated from college and to have post-graduate degrees. And I can't say I know this, but I believe it to be true that religious adherence is inversely related to education. I also made the point about the Enlightenment, which was as I understand it, very important in changing the status of European Jews and was therefore eagerly embraced by them.

Also, I have seen data that shows that fundamentalism is more common among Christians than Jews. Also, in my experience (perhaps not generalizable) even liberal Christians I've met are more likely than liberal Jews I've met to take key religious beliefs as literal. I'm not a literalist, I should say, and yet an active Jew. I don't think literalism is required for religious adherence, but it sure makes it more compelling to belong to a particular religion if you believe it be THE truth.

I'm one of those involved, committed Jews who nonetheless intermarried. In part, this is explained by the fact that I had a very happy relationship previously with a non-Jew who embraced Judaism enthusiastically. My husband is less interested in organized religion all together. However, my prior experience made me open to the possibility that this kind of situation could work. And as I saw myself getting older, this openness seemed appropriate to me. My intermarriage -- and that of many other people I know -- should not be read to reflect a disinterest in Judaism pre-marriage or post.

What I would say to a marginally affiliated Jew is, as H. Berman says, to live this amazing religion and experience the emotional and spiritual power of its rituals, its intellectual richness, and the great relevance of its teachings to personal life, social justice, etc. I would also say that there's great meaning -- if all the other things work for you -- in living out a religion that has persisted despite great opposition.

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Author: Susan (---.milwaukee.k12.wi.us)
Date: 03-20-01 19:22

I agree with what Mina and H. Berman write, except for one small point.

<I> Now if Brad still needs an actual argument for Judaism, here's one: Jews comprise such a tiny
percentage of the population. Yet their contributions in every area (including religion) throughout
history far far exceed their numbers and are, in proportion to their population greater than any other
religion. </i>

I can think of one area where Jews' "contributions" are disproportionately small, and that is the area of violent crime. If one important purpose of religion is to improve human conduct, and I think it should be, then Judaism seems to "work" better than most people's religions.

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Hmmm...

Author: Bobby (---.tnt5.lax3.da.uu.net)
Date: 03-20-01 20:55

Brad...

You are wrong Jews are not fearful of anyone with an education and when you receive your education in Judaism it will become evident in your new attitude and respect for Judaism.

Susan made an obsevation in comparing minority with education. Here is further example...

Twenty-one percent of Nobel Prize winners have been Jews even though Jews comprise less than one-quarter percent of the world's population. Choose any field, and you will find that Jews have excelled in it. Think of the names of many modern-day figures most responsible for the intellectual turning points of history- Marx, Freud, Einstein -and you will find proof for the Biblical verdict: "Surely this is...a wise and understanding people." {Deut. 4:6}

Bobby

PS. Mina... You made a great observation when speaking in context of overcoming to achieve.

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H. Berman...

Author: Bobby (---.tnt5.lax3.da.uu.net)
Date: 03-20-01 21:12

You are on target...the perpective was the focus not the education. However, I would reason that with a correct historical education the perspective will be positive.

Bobby

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intermarriage

Author: Jay (12.88.91.---)
Date: 03-25-01 22:14

To those of you who are intermarried, you certainly have that right to chose; However, remember this: The passage from the scriptures" a stranger in our midst" has a twofold meaning. Firstly, that stranger has to be welcomed into our midst as a human being. This means humane treatment and hospitality. Secondly,as a person who is within our midst, in the event that he (or she) is attracted to a Jew,or Jewess, they have to be converted PRIOR TO ANY MARRIAGE.There is a question wether or not offspring are accepted depending which side of the fence one is on,Orthodox, Conservative, Reformed, or Reconstructionist(agnostic).
In the event of a Christian male marrying a Jewish female the issue is clear that the child born to them is automatically Jewish without any doubt; In the case of the Jewish male marrying a christian female, the child must be converted, providing this child is not baptized. There is no way of conversion if this has happened according to orthodox tenets.(I tend to hold this position).
I feel that it is a poor excuse form those sitting on a fence by saying: Well, we are an intermarried family, but, well live Jewishly nonetheless. I think that it promotes a "subconcious level of unrest between the couple" for lack of a better word or phrase.

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Thanks Jay...

Author: Bobby (---.tnt23.lax3.da.uu.net)
Date: 03-27-01 10:13

All views are respected here. My wife is not Jewish and I appreciate her just the same, inspite of the fact Chabad wanted to see us divorce and then have her go through conversion, and then we allow us to get remarried by an Orthodox Rabbi.
I have good Orthodox friends and I choose to remain with my wife faithful to her as a Jew in an intermarriage. My wife is very gracious and understanding that I do attend Reform service occasionally. I know the Orthodox have a lot of halacha and extra concerns and I can respect that...however when Moshiach comes he will straighten us all out including Orthodox, Reform, Conservative, or Reconstructionist and non-Jews.

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