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Discussing Israel

Author: InterfaithFamily.com Editor (---.home.net)
Date: 10-12-00 16:12

Do you and your partner find the current developments in Israel to be a difficult topic to discuss? Please post your comments and feelings here.

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Author: Patty (---.ne.mediaone.net)
Date: 10-12-00 22:45

I was brought up to care deeply about Israel. My husband, though very supportive of raising our kids Jewish, doesn't have this strong bond to Israel and it is sometimes difficult to discuss the situation with him.

He doesn't have the same commitment and sympathy for Israel that I do. I also feel critical of some Israeli actions, but when I criticize Israel it is with deep caring, which I don't see in my husband.

Does anyone else have this problem?

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i know who you feel?

Author: muslim (---.proxy.aol.com)
Date: 10-15-00 17:45

Yes i do know how you feel. With all these Israeli men shooting at Palestinian childern
and women,young and old, who wouldnt feel any sympathy? I mean only sick demends can do the things these jews are doing. What ever happend to the holocost where hundreds of jews were killed by a man who was half jew himself, what now Jews want to do what Hittler did? This makes no sense to me.Mabey your husband just cant stand whats going on and he wants no part in it. The important thing is that GOD sees whats going on, He sees who these Jews are treating people, and believe me when i say They will be punished by God if not in this life time, then it will be in hell, where they belong. ALLAH knows and sees all things

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i know who you feel?

Author: muslim (---.proxy.aol.com)
Date: 10-15-00 17:46

Yes i do know how you feel. With all these Israeli men shooting at Palestinian childern
and women,young and old, who wouldnt feel any sympathy? I mean only sick demends can do the things these jews are doing. What ever happend to the holocost where hundreds of jews were killed by a man who was half jew himself, what now Jews want to do what Hittler did? This makes no sense to me.Mabey your husband just cant stand whats going on and he wants no part in it. The important thing is that GOD sees whats going on, He sees how these Jews are treating people, and believe me when i say They will be punished by God if not in this life time, then it will be in hell, where they belong. ALLAH knows and sees all things

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Author: Patsy (---.home.net)
Date: 10-16-00 11:50

Crash Course in Middle East History
www.facts4peace.com

Nationhood and Jerusalem

· Israel became a nation in 1312 B.C.E., two thousand years before the rise of Islam. Arab refugees in Israel began identifying
themselves as part of a Palestinian people in 1967, two decades after the establishment of the modern State of Israel. · Since the
Jewish conquest in 1272 B.C.E. the Jews have had dominion over the land for one thousand years with a continuous presence in the
land for the past 3,300 years. The only Arab dominion since the conquest in 635 C.E. lasted no more than 22 years. ·

For over 3,300 years, Jerusalem has been the Jewish capital Jerusalem has never been the capital of any Arab or Muslim entity.
Even when the Jordanians occupied Jerusalem, they never sought to make it their capital, and Arab leaders did not come to visit. ·
Jerusalem is mentioned over 700 times in Tanach, the Jewish Holy Scriptures. Jerusalem is not mentioned once in the Koran. · King
David founded the city of Jerusalem. Mohammed never came to Jerusalem. · Jews pray facing Jerusalem. Muslims pray with their
backs toward Jerusalem.

Arab and Jewish Refugees

In 1948 the Arab refugees were encouraged to leave Israel by Arab leaders promising to purge the land of Jews. Sixty-eight percent
left without ever seeing an Israeli soldier. The Jewish refugees were forced to flee from Arab lands due to Arab brutality, persecution
and pogroms. · The number of Arab refugees who left Israel in 1948 is estimated to be around 630,000.

The number of Jewish refugees from Arab lands is estimated to be the same. · Arab refugees were intentionally not absorbed or
integrated into the Arab lands to which they fled, despite the vast Arab territory. Out of the 100,000,000 refugees since World War II, theirs is the only refugee group in the world that has never been absorbed or integrated into their own peoples' lands. Jewish refugees were completely absorbed into Israel, a country no larger than the state of New Jersey.

The Arab - Israeli Conflict

· The Arabs are represented by eight separate nations, not including the Palestinians. There is only one Jewish nation. · The Arab nations initiated all five wars and lost. Israel defended itself each time and won. · The P.L.O.'s Charter still calls for the destruction of the State of Israel.

Israel has given the Palestinians most of the West Bank land, autonomy under the Palestinian Authority, and has supplied them with weapons. · Under Jordanian rule, Jewish holy sites were desecrated and the Jews were denied access to places of worship. Under Israeli rule, all Muslim and Christian sites have been preserved and made accessible to people of all faiths.

The U.N. Record on Israel and the Arabs

· Of the 175 Security Council resolutions passed before 1990, 97 were directed against Israel. · Of the 690 General Assembly
resolutions voted on before 1990, 429 were directed against Israel.

The U.N was silent while 58 Jerusalem Synagogues were destroyed by the Jordanians. · The U.N. was silent while the
Jordanians systematically desecrated the ancient Jewish cemetery on the Mount of Olives. · The U.N. was silent while the Jordanians enforced an apartheid-like policy of preventing Jews from visiting
the Temple Mount and the Western Wall.

www.facts4peace.com

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Author: Patsy (---.home.net)
Date: 10-16-00 12:04

The Price of America's Na*Øvet*©

By REUEL MARC GERECHT

WASHINGTON History is long and merciless in the Middle East. The suicide boat-bombing of the U.S.S. Cole in the port of Aden, Yemen, and the turmoil in Israel, Gaza and the West Bank are, above all else, violent expressions of the age-old confrontation between Islam and the West. America, no less than
Israel, is inextricably tied to the Muslim-Christian tug-of-war that began in
the seventh century when Arab armies first conquered Palestine.

Unfortunately, America's foreign policy has usually ignored, if not denied, the fact that the United States walks in the footsteps of Europe in the Middle East. We are the region's pre-eminent Western power, the successor to Great Britain, but we see ourselves as of the new world, not the old: able to be "friends" with anybody, regardless of race, creed, or religion.American exceptionalism -- the ironclad belief that our secular tradition of toleration, moderation and compromise can transcend the religions and animosities of older societies -- has led us to see others as we would want
them to see themselves. This naivete, complemented by the naivete of many on
the Israeli left, who also downplay and deride religion as the defining feature of people's lives, has provoked the Middle East's present strife far more than Ariel Sharon's visit to the Temple Mount.

The Clinton administration has tenaciously pursued a peace process that Muslims regard as an insult to their pride. Muslims from Tangiers to Tehran may be willing to concede that Israel exists because, as the Soviets used to say, the correlation of forces allows no other alternative. But they rebel
against the idea that Jews have a legitimate, historic right to a state west of the Jordan river, which is, after all, the ultimate objective of the peace process. For decades, the State Department has operated under the assumption that with the right batch of Israeli concessions the Arab world would tire, cut a deal, and recognize the legitimacy of the Jewish state.

There is no doubt that the Middle East is no longer a hotbed of competing virulently anti-Israeli Arab nationalisms. Pan-Arabism, Ba'athism and Nasserism have all given way to new national identities, in which the Muslim
component has regained considerable ground. And for a Muslim, who views Islam as God's final revelation and can recall with vividness and understandable pride nearly a thousand years of Muslim triumph and superiority over Christendom (that is, the West), the presence and strength of Israel is a painful reminder of Islam's long fall from power. Though esteemed for their knowledge, Jews are usually characterized in Islamic tradition as cowardly and weak. Losing to Christians over the last 300 years has been bad enough; losing to Jews since 1947 has been especially galling.

A quick read of the Arabic press, particularly the Palestinian press, with
its calls to holy war and slogans of "Death to the Jews," ought to give pause to those who still believe that with just one more Israeli concession -- East Jerusalem -- the Arab world would convert what it calls "Jewish Crusaders" into legitimate neighbors. Palestinian Arab nationalism is younger than its Israeli Jewish counterpart, but the Muslim reluctance to concede that "Muslim
lands" can ever legitimately be relinquished to infidels is age-old, imbedded into Islamic law and custom. Palestinian Arab nationalism, born through conflict with Palestinian Jewish
nationalism and intellectually nourished since 1948 by virulent, Western-imported anti-Semitism, reinforces the religious tendency to see Israel as an alien power and Jews as unrelenting hostile to the Islamic faith.

The Clinton administration, like the Bush administration before it, unwisely chose to advance the "peace process" as quickly as possible, attempting in effect to force the Palestinians and those Arabs allied to their cause to make de facto recognition of Israel de jure. We have in essence been demanding that they in broad daylight forsake their history and their faith as they have come to understand them. They quite naturally have declined.

The Americans and the Israelis have managed to make happen in only 10 years what America's enemies in the Middle East could only have dreamed of doing. Laid low by two decades of miscalculation, Yasir Arafat and the Palestinian Liberation Organization were then revived by secret and then open diplomacy with Jerusalem and Washington.
Washington encouraged -- and Jerusalem delivered -- concession after
concession to Mr. Arafat, even though Mr. Arafat, when speaking Arabic to the
Arab world, never abandoned the claims that the Palestinian Arabs have always made to all of Israel.

Further east, Saddam Hussein has turned the tables on the United States in the public opinion wars. Mr. Hussein may not yet have rebuilt his army, but he has made immense progress in demonstrating that Arab radicals, if not Arab monarchs, still know how to stand up against the West.

When Israel precipitously withdrew from Lebanon, abandoning the allied South
Lebanese Army to the mercy of Hezbollah, a wave of pride rippled through the
Middle East. When Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Barak made concessions at Camp
David touching on East Jerusalem and the Temple Mount, the people of the
"Arab street," to which Yasir Arafat is connected at the navel, saw Israel
and America on the run. From that moment, violence in Israel, the West Bank,
Gaza and Jordan was inevitable.
¬Ý

If the United States had moved its embassy from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem at the end of the Gulf War, we would have sent a crystal-clear signal to both our enemies and our friends that America's writ and Israel's legitimacy are non-negotiable and indomitable. We went in the other direction, toward the peace process and what we called even-handedness.
For both our Arab friends and our Arab enemies -- and especially for the
Israelis who, despite their faults, remain the only liberal democracy in the region -- we should realize that the peace process will not change the anti-Western fundamentals of the Middle East. Both Washington and Jerusalem will have to live in an imperfect, sometimes violent world, where peace is
found in heaven, not on earth.

Reuel Marc Gerecht, a former Middle East specialist in the Central
Intelligence Agency, is the author (under the pseudonym Edward Shirley) of "Know Thine Enemy: A Spy's Journey into revolutionary Iran."

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Author: Chris (---.milwaukee.k12.wi.us)
Date: 10-16-00 22:56

I don't understand why Jews have such an emotional thing about Israel. I agreed to raise our children Jewish, but my husband seems to think that that means taking them to Israel and getting all wrapped up in Israeli politics. Well, my great-great-grandparents came from Norway, but what's going on there doesn't interest me in the least! I'm afraid that some day, one of my children may go to Israel and be killed, all because of my husband's strange tribal craziness. It's making me feel really uncomfortable.

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Postings hostile to Israel

Author: InterfaithFamily.com Editor (---.home.net)
Date: 10-17-00 11:30

Dear Readers,
A reader has asked us to delete postings 3 and 4 (which are identical) by "a muslim" which are extremely hostile to Israel. Although we completely disagree with the views expressed in these postings, we have decided not to delete them. We think it may be helpful to our readers to see this kind of posting as it may help them understand why so many Jews have such strong feelings about the need to support and defend Israel.

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Author: Dave (---.proxy.aol.com)
Date: 10-21-00 19:50

I must admit I feel some sympathy for the Gentile woman who is worried about her children going to Israel. But I don't think she has much to worry about. Before her child grows up he/she will find out that according to Jewish Law (Halacha) her children aren't Jewish (Without a proper conversion only the children of Jewish women are Jewish).

When her child finds out about Halacha the child will probably feel less Jewish. In any event the child will probably copy his/her father and marry gentile-and why then go.

What she doesn't understand is that a Jew's 'tribal' feelings come not only from the fact that Israel is hte Jewish homland, like her Norway, but that Israel is the only conceivable refuge in the event of a future wave of anti-Jewish feeling. Such feelings don't occur to Norwegians, so she (and her children) will not understand.

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Dave's posting

Author: InterfaithFamily.com Editor (---.ipt.aol.com)
Date: 10-22-00 22:38

As we have pointed out many times in the past, the Reform movement, which is the largest movement in North America, recognizes patrilineal descent. There are many patrilineal Reform Jewish children who do not feel less Jewish "when they find out about Halacha" and many of those children who happen to intermarry will still create Jewish families and have a strong desire to travel to Israel.

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Author: Chris (---.milwaukee.k12.wi.us)
Date: 10-23-00 22:48

So what if my children and I have the same religion as people there? There's NO danger of my EVER wanting to take my children to Israel, at least not as long as the Zionists are in control of the government!

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Israel

Author: Sara (---.proxy.aol.com)
Date: 11-03-00 18:07

Israel is the spiritual and physical homeland of all Jewish people. This is why Jews feel so strongly about Israel's existence. A gentile cannot compare their own homeland or place of origin with the Jews and their relationship to Israel. There is no comparison.

God gave that piece of land (actually, much more of it than present political boundaries show) to the Jewish people, and ONLY the Jewish people, IN PERPETUITY. It is a spiritual gift from God, one discussed in the Jewish and Christian Bibles, in the book of Genesis.

I am Jewish and my husband is not. Our children are being raised as Jews. He seems to understand how I feel about Israel, yet at other times he does not.

I too don't know how to deal with it.

Sara

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family issues with Judaism

Author: alexisyael (---.244.74.145.LosAngeles1.Level3.net)
Date: 11-05-00 15:57

I find it quite hard to talk with my family (non-Jews) about the situation in Israel. My mother particularly has said many offensive things to the point of Zionism being just another form of totalitarianism.

I feel that when my husband and I discuss Israel, we are both doing so with "care" (as another poster pointed out) even though only he was born Jewish, part of the process of my conversion was my identification with Israel as a spiritual and religious home. We disagree occasionally about policy (I am in deep sympathy with all the people of the area, and I feel it is my duty as a Jew to point out that both the Jews and teh Palestinians have made mistakes -- now is the time for forgiveness, not a time when we should entrench even further our hatreds as is now happening.)

My observation is that some non-Jewish, non-Arabic (Palestinian, Muslim) people cannot understand the situation in Israel because they do not understand the compexity of emotion involved. Even though Jews and Muslims in the US have been portrayed as being on opposite sides of the issue, I do not feel that is the case. We should all be striving for peace. Shalom and Saalam are our people's greatest gifts to the world. We need to create peace, not destroy it!

alexisyael

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Violence in Israel

Author: Heidi Travis (206.11.253.---)
Date: 11-21-00 00:52

I just returned from Israel at midnight last night after spending a week and a half there, including driving through the West Bank. There is no way I can truly convey the message to anyone that has not been there that the reports of the violence taking place there have been greatly exaggerated by the media, for the simple reason that bad news sells. The media would have you believe that the whole country is a war-zone. Nothing could be further from the truth. The incidences are very isolated and cut off from everyday society outside the Palestinian-occupied territories.

I have to honestly say the the United States is by far more dangerous than Israel is, difficult as that may seem to believe. We're just more complacent here because in our overblown ego, we seem to think we're indestructable. But, I have to add that it's very easy for us, in our imagined infinite wisdom and ego-centricity, to have an opinion of how we think the State of Israel should be run, and that differs tremendously from what Israeli citizens think. It's easy to have an opinion when you're just observing the situation from afar. I was reminded by a native-born Israeli that Israel is the only country in the world in which parents bury their children instead of the other way around.

It is important that the Jewish people have a land they can call their own, regardless of whether one believes Israel to be "promised" them. Since the very beginning of the Jewish people they have been despised and hated, and many have sought their destruction. The only thing that has prevented that from happening is the fierce loyalty Jews feel for one another, and for the State of Israel, the only safe haven afforded to them. This, on a tiny, unforgiving parcel of land the size of Massachusetts, surrounded by hostile enemies. As we have seen in the past, and in recent weeks, even the United States isn't truly safe for the Jews.

It is difficult for a non-Jew to understand that Judaism is more than a religion. It is more like a country with it's own people of varied races, and it's own laws and customs, with religion just being a part of the mix. Israel is the homeland for that civilization called Judaism. When Israel is attacked, it is the Jewish civilization and people that are being attacked. Unfortunately, it is only the Israelis that pay the ultimate price.

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Author: Frank (---.proxy.aol.com)
Date: 12-30-00 18:19

There is of course no way to way to explain to a person who is not a dedicated Jew how important Israel is for Jews, However for those who have intermarried and therefore less likely to be dedicated Jews, try to to find a Fundamentalist Christian to explain that importance

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discussing Israel

Author: Eve (---.proxy.aol.com)
Date: 01-02-01 09:05

One of the things I noticed the first few times I went to visit my Jewish mother-in-law with my husband (before we were married) was the kind of conversations they had. They talked frequently about Israel (a subject I knew almost nothing about) and the implications for Jews of political events in this country. Totally different from what I was used to growing up, although we did talk politics a lot at my house. Five years later, I converted to Judaism, and in the past 15 years, my husband and I have traveled to Israel twice with our kids, and I have been active in the Jewish community in a variety of ways. I think you ask an important question regarding how interfaith couples and families discuss Israel, and I am certain there is not just one answer. On our most recent trip this past summer, we traveled with a group of 50 from our synagogue and had the opportunity to hear from passionate speakers from both sides of the political spectrum. My husband had many conversations with our tour guide who lives walking distance from the Kotel and they shared a similar perspective in not believing that peace efforts would bear fruit. I left Israel with more questions than answers (which the guides assured us meant one was paying attention; the situation is complex), and wondered how my experience differed from people on the trip who had grown up with "trees for Israel" certificates on the walls of their homes, pushkas (boxes for charitable contributions) on their tables, relatives in Israel, summers on a kibbutz and discussions of Israel at their dinner tables.

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discussing Israel

Author: Leatrice (---.SAC.RYERSON.CA)
Date: 01-02-01 12:33

While I am Jewish, my husband is Roman Catholic from a very large Irish Catholic family. We have one daughter, who, of course, is Jewish. My husband is and always has been a staunch supporter of Israel even before we got together. (17 years now). His support is so strong that he and his closest brother did not speak for over a year because of a disagreement that involved Israeli politics (this happened long before we got together).
As for the rest of his family ... as you can see, feelings are mixed. His only sister is very pro-Israel in her sentiments as well (although it seems her husband and son are being swayed by the anti-Israeli media coverage here in Canada).
One does not have to be Jewish to love the state of Israel and all it stands for.

Leatrice

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conversion

Author: stephanie (204.26.92.---)
Date: 01-05-01 16:43

Folks,

This is completely off the subject, but does anyone out there know of a Christian/Jewish marriage where one partner converted to Judaism and then dissolved their conversion and went back to the Church? That is what I am considering doing. I want my marriage and family (3 children) to survive this. We are raising our kids as Jews but I feel too cut off from my past. I think it's most important to have a mom and dad under the same roof. Help!!!!!

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Conversion

Author: Heidi (206.11.253.---)
Date: 01-06-01 13:24

In response to Stephanie: I'm not exactly in the same situation, but I understand how you feel. I am converting to Judaism out of a Christian/Christian marriage. (My Beit Din/mikvah will be just before Passover.) I will be the only Jew in my entire family--extended family included--and my children are being raised as Christians. I've drawn very clear lines in the sand, which I think is the best I can do when we are entering this new stage of becoming an interfaith household.

I feel completely cut off from my past as my former Christian lifestyle holds no more meaning for me, but also from my future as I have no Jewish relatives with whom to celebrate holidays or life-cycle events, and no close Jewish friends--just a few acquaintances from my shul. There will be no one to recite Kaddish for me after I die. At times I feel it would be easier to go back to being a Christian and live my life the way I used to. Let's face it, being a Christian IS easy. My decision hasn't been easy on me or my family, and we've had numerous arguments and difficulties. But, if I went back to the church then I wouldn't be true to myself, my values, or my beliefs, and all the hard work I've put into becoming the best Jew I can be in my situation would be for nothing. I've accepted this isolation, and have decided to leave the past in the past, and forge ahead toward my future, regardless of what it may hold.

Maybe it will help to think of it like a marriage with all it entails including all its ups and downs. When you get married you are not the same person you were in the past, either. You make a new future for yourself, which will, in time, become your past, too. When you hit a snag, you don't run out and seek a divorce first. You try to work it out by talking things over, trying new ways of approaching the marriage, and through counseling. If none of those things work first, and you've run out of tools to save the marriage, then divorce becomes a viable option.

I think you should be thankful that you have a Jewish family to turn to when things feel difficult for you. Tell them how you've been feeling, and don't be afraid to ask them for help and support. Talk to others in your community, or seek guidance from your local Jewish Family Service providers. Talk to your rabbi. If, after you've taken these steps first, you decide that Judaism just isn't for you (and it isn't for everybody--many born-Jews included), then consider returning to the church.

I pray that you find the support and advice that you need, and that whatever decision you come to grants you fulfillment in your life.

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Discussing Israel with Gentile Partner

Author: Sydney (---.proxy.aol.com)
Date: 01-08-01 02:23

I have great difficulty in discussing Israel with my partner, who is a liberal Mennonite. Part of the difficulty is his personality, which is very introverted, and part is the Mennonite attitude which is that disagreements are non-negotiable. I once asked him what Mennonites do when they disagree and he replied, "They form another church." At the beginning of our relationship, realizing that Israel was very important to me, I suggested that we vacation there and perhaps he would broaden his view (which was very pro-Palestinian, as most non-fundamentlist Christians are). In 1992 we found a trip which combined the sponsorship of the Volunteers for Israel with our Sister City Program. Our Sister City is Ashkelon, and we were supposed to work in a rose garden that our city had donated, and in an archaelogical dig. While we were in the air, flying with 63 volunteers, we learned that we could not visit Ashkelon, but would be assigned to an Army hospital in Haifa.(This conflicted with my partner's peace commitments, but he agreed, as it was a hospital to continue on. I found the experience to be very interesting and exciting. My partner spent his time painting in the boiler rooms and avoiding talking to Israelis. He learned nothing. I was so disappointed that I refused to marry him. We are not young. I am a widowed grandmother. Good men are hard to find, so it is a grave disappointment to both of us.

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Israeli-Arab situation

Author: Todd (---.proxy.aol.com)
Date: 01-08-01 09:22

The problem is quite sad. I am pro-Isael AND pro-Palestinian. There doesn't need to be a dichotomy here! As victims of persecution and oppression it irritates me to see ourselves legitimizing the 2nd class citizenship of Arabs in Israel. It goes totally against what our experiences should have taught us.

Israel has to protect itself and its culture for sure. But does that have to box us into 'hawkish' positions? I think not. There is a great site that I donate to called The New Israel Fund, which is about creating partnerships and friendships, not blindly going along with politics that look like apartheid to most of the world!

www.nif.org is the address. It is worth the reading. As a Jew I ache when I see Arabs being mowed down by macho guns (for throwing rocks?). To many gentiles it looks like the racist Southern U.S. - a predominantly white regime treating Arabs like 'niggers'.

The Jewish fight to survive is overlooked by many gentiles, but when Amnesty International and the U.N. are getting irked too, it can't all be dismissed as easily as 'security'.

We need a homeland, surely. But also, weren't the Arabs in Judea previous to 1948 in great numbers? We needed to escape the Nazis and persecution, surely. But what of the displaced Arabs kicked off their property, is our plight grounds to treat them however we saw fit?

That's why I love Seperation of Church & State. The Promised Land should be a land of Peace. Land should not be an idol, our heritage of Hillel and Buber should reign higher than that.

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Author: Ray (---.toronto77.dialup.canada.psi.net)
Date: 01-14-01 15:19

First of all Buber was a reform Jew and therefore not necessarily part of "our" heritage.

Secondly the Palestinians are claiming all of Israel. The Jews are claiming all of Israel. That seems to be a dichotomy.

How many Arab members of the New Israel Fund are there?

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Response to Ray: Msg 26

Author: Heidi (206.11.253.---)
Date: 01-14-01 23:10

Since when are Reform Jews not Jews? Seems to me, Reform Jews have been around for well over a century, and are here to stay. Don't forget that 40% + of American Jews are Reform Jews, and the Reform also have a very visible presence in Israel as well. Are Conservative or Reconstructionist Jews not Jews, either? If that's the case, then it seems to me that the Jewish people in America will soon be extinct since it's the non-Orthodox that make up the vast majority of Jews in this country, and this country's Jews that make up the vast majority of Jews in the world.

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Author: Ray (---.proxy.aol.com)
Date: 01-21-01 11:31

Firstly, besides Buber, eating treif, praying with uncovered heads, super short services in english are reform 'heritage'. How can you say that these are part of Jewish heritage

Secondly the US has more Jews than any other single country, but it does not have the majority of Jews in the world. Furthermore according to demographers, Israel will surpass the US in its number of Jews (already more than 4 million) in the next 2 decades.

Thirdly the reform do have a noisy but small presence in Israel. The Orthodox way surpass them in numbers.

Fourthly as for extinction, with the ultra-Orthosox having up to 10 Jewish children per family and the reform having considerabley less, which group will hit extinction first?

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Jew vs. Jew

Author: Heidi (206.11.253.---)
Date: 01-22-01 10:43

Been to a Reform shul lately? You're talking old "classic" Reform which is going the way of the dinosaur. Saturday services are anywhere from 1-1/2 to 3 hours long, depending on what's happening and how many congregants are present (meaning enough for a minyan), and roughly 50% English, 50% Hebrew, maybe even slightly more Hebrew than English. Learning Hebrew is highly encouraged for everyone of all ages, and classes are offered for everyone-not just the kids in Hebrew school. Also, both men and women cover their heads (which is a custom, not halacha) as well as wear tallisim. Observance of the mitzvot is becoming popular again, including keeping kosher and laying t'fillin. As for Reform becoming extinct, true, they may not have as many children, but they take in converts by the thousands every year. Of course, only the Orthodox don't view the Reform as Jews, nor the Conservative, nor the Reconstructionist, nor the Humanist, nor whatever else, whether born-Jews or converts. Sounds pretty parochial to me.

Your argument is illogical. If a child is born to Orthodox parents, and is raised Orthodox, but, as an adult, davens in a Reform synagogue for whatever reason, be it logistics or marriage, yet keeps all the mitzvot he/she previously observed, is that person no longer Jewish? Does that mean a born Reform Jew is more Jewish because he/she goes to an Orthodox shul and observes mitzvot? Is it strictly observance of mitzvot that makes a Jew a Jew? Even a Gentile can observe mitzvot if they so choose (outside the synagogue), whether "commanded" to or not.

What about an Orthodox Jew that chooses to become totally secular? Are they no longer Jewish? Tell that to the Israelis. Over 80% of them are secular, meaning totally and completely non-observant. True, the synagogues they are not going to are Orthodox, but the point is they are not going to any synagogue, and they are not observant of any mitzvot. If only 20% of Israel's Jewish population is observant, then in your argument only that 20% is truly Jewish. If this is the case, how can Israel be the Jewish state? Surely, then, the Jews would, at the least, be the minority in that country as they are everywhere else, outnumbered by the secular "non-Jewish" Jews, the Muslims and the Christians, and at best equal in numbers to the secular and the non-Jewish religions.

Of course, within that 20% there are many who don't acknowledge Israel as a state, either, and are anti-Zionist. They'll live there, and they'll take the welfare money from all the "non-Jewish" Jews that work at real jobs and don't sit in yeshiva all day for their profession. They alone try to decide whom they feel is a good enough Jew to daven at The Wall (for them it's only the ultra-Orthodox). They (the Haredim) refuse to serve in the army that protects them, their children and their freedom. Meanwhile, the "non-Jewish" Jews, according to your argument, are either being killed themselves, or are burying their children that serve in the army. Yet, in their opinion, and apparently yours, only these people are the true Jews.

Israel seems to feel the Jews of the former Soviet Union who were forbidden from practicing any Judaism except for Simchat Torah, were and are Jewish enough to rescue. Israel also seemed to feel that the Ethiopian Jews whose practices barely resembled anything we would be familiar with were also worthy enough Jews to bring to The Land. But mostly, if the non-Orthodox Jews were Jewish enough for Hitler, and there are enough of them lying in mass graves in Europe, then the non-Orthodox should be Jewish enough for everyone else, too.

It's time for this particularist "Who is a Jew", "What is a Jew", "Jew vs. Jew" mentality to come to an end. We are all created in the image and likeness of
G-d, regardless of how many mitzvot we observe or how we observe them.

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Re: Jew vs. Jew

Author: Susan (---.milwaukee.k12.wi.us)
Date: 01-24-01 06:59

Heidi:

So, does Martin Buber attend one of these neotraditionalist Reform synagogues? Frankly, I don't see what difference it makes how many Reform people are laying t'filin these days if Reform is propagating lies about Orthodox Jews' "views."

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Response to Ray, Susan

Author: Heidi (206.11.253.---)
Date: 01-24-01 13:53

Note: This, and my previous posting, is a very specific response to a posting I saw on this site, not a generalization or an attack. I apologize if I have offended anyone with my previous response to that posting that thankfully do not share the same viewpoint as this particular individual.

Actions speak louder than words. When one is consistently a target of very real slander from one's own people, one tends to become a bit cynical. The Reform are constantly being slammed in the media, in literature, in Israel, and on the internet, being called "radicals" and denied they share in a Jewish "heritage." Normally I do not get involved in political issues, but this is one I cannot let go because it hurts me so deeply. It's hard enough to be Jewish without having other individual Jews making it even more difficult for the rest of us. I know that it is not the official viewpoint of Orthodoxy, and not even an issue among the majority, but among many it is the unofficial practice. The Reform don't have a problem with the Orthodox. Why do SOME of the Orthodox have a problem with the Reform?

I choose not to identify my Jewish life with total observance because it is nearly impossible in my interfaith marriage and predominantly Christian household, not because I feel it doesn't have anything to offer me. However, I am not completely non-observant nor secular, either. I find it admirable that the Orthodox have kept alive traditional Judaism for 2000 years, and have adapted it to work within modern times, and also within the Diaspora, which must be unbelievably difficult. I have a tremendous respect for the Orthodox. There is no more beautiful sight than watching the way the Orthodox daven with such intensity and devotion. But, for some, the Reform movement is the avenue by which some of the guilt is taken away when one cannot be, or chooses not to be that observant. You can drive to shul without feeling guilty, or more importantly, judged. I have davened in an Orthodox synagogue, but because it is 25 miles away from my house, I had to drive and park several blocks away so I wouldn't feel judged for having driven there on the Sabbath, but mostly out of respect for those that won't drive.

These are the actions I have personally seen and experienced both in the United States and in Israel:

An Orthodox synagogue has its sukkah torched by arsonists over Shabbat Sukkot. It receives mention in the paper and on the evening news. Who shows up to help rebuild it after the Sabbath other than its own congregation? Local Conservative and Reform Jews. A Reform synagogue has antisemitic epithets spray-painted all over it, and who shows up to help clean it up? No one. It isn't even worthy of mention in the back pages of the newspaper. The congregation is stuck having to remove it themselves. The crimes committed certainly aren't the same in scope, but no less damaging to the psyche.

Repeated attempts have been made by some ultra-Orthodox radicals to deny the non-Orthodox (not just the Reform) the right to make aliyah to Israel under the Law of Return. Thank G-d they are in the minority, and those attempts are always put down.

Reform women have been barred from holding Torah services at The Wall, and have been victims of physical assault and called "prostitutes" and other names when they tried to, or even for the simple "crime" of wearing a tallis. Reform men can pray there and hold Torah services, but the women can't. The Reform movement believes in absolute equality, therefore women are allowed to do these things, too. Where is the freedom of religion? Yet, a Christian can pray there, and out loud if he/she so wishes, and read from the New Testament!

An ultra-Orthodox man won't so much as even look at or speak to a Reform woman when they are brought together on Israeli television to try to discuss their differing viewpoints.

When an Orthodox mikvah is used for a Reform conversion, that conversion is still not viewed as a proper conversion, and is not recognized.

In Biblical times there were different sects, or denominations, or movements, or whatever you want to call them, of Jews. Yet, the Saducees, the Pharisees and the Essenes never denied that each other were Jewish. Heck, even the first followers of Jesus were considered Jews until Paul came along and started his own religion. One could argue that no one today is practicing Torah Judaism. Torah Judaism involves animal sacrifice and Temple worship. PETA would have a field day if we went back to that! Judaism as a whole has evolved beyond that, yet when a group of Jews tries to evolve beyond "tradition" and become more contemporary, some would deny that they are even Jews.

The Reform are no better than, nor worse than the Orthodox. But, they are still Jews, and share in the same heritage, even if they just practice it a little differently, or not at all.

How can we be "a light unto the nations" if we behave no better than the Catholics and Protestants of northern Ireland? Yet, even they do not deny that each other is Christian and have the same heritage. "Who says your blood is redder?" needs to become or re-become our mantra. "Who is a Jew" shouldn't even be an issue. As I said before, we are all created in the image and likeness of G-d, and are all children of Abraham. If G-d doesn't differentiate between us, why should we?

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Response to Heidi

Author: Susan (---.milwaukee.k12.wi.us)
Date: 01-24-01 18:51

If you ask any orthodox Jew, s/he will tell you that if your mother is a Jew or if you converted according to halakhah, you are a Jew. Period. If you have a Jewish mother and you eat a ham and cheese sandwich or murder your mother-in-law, you are still a Jew (albeit not a very good one). And, certainly, if you join a reform congregation, you are still a Jew. Some orthodox people may simply tell you that the religion you're practicing isn't Judaism, but that doesn't make you any less of a Jew in orthodox eyes.

The point Ray is trying to make is that just because Martin Buber or some other Jewish person commits a certain action, that doesn't make that action a Jewish action. Surely murdering one's mother-in-law doesn't become a Jewish action just because one is Jewish, does it? Nor will eating a ham and cheese sandwich ever become a Jewish action, even if a Jewish person does it. I realize that joining a reform congregation is not in the same class of actions as murder, and that many reform people these days will even refuse to eat that ham and cheese sandwich. But by the same principle, many people believe that a movement which rejects halakhah or views it as optional is not really part of the Jewish heritage and that joining such a movement is not a particularly Jewish thing to do.

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Response to Susan

Author: Heidi (206.11.253.---)
Date: 01-24-01 21:41

I agree with you completely. However, some people join Reform synagogues for reasons other than identifying with the ideals of the movement, and that is where I took offense. It doesn't matter to me which movement I belong to, or more accurately, my synagogue is affiliated with. What matters is the environment and the people within that environment, but even more than that is my relationship with
G-d. For me, the closest synagogue to where I live is 10 miles away, and just happens to be Reform. There aren't any others any closer, and it isn't feasible for my family to move. Am I to be condemned for that and told that I do not share in a Jewish heritage? Also, I am very fortunate it happens to be a synagogue where interfaith families are made to feel very welcome, and as this site has pointed out many times, that isn't always the case. Intermarrying also isn't a very Jewish thing to do, but isn't that the reason we all log on to this site? To find support from each other in dealing with intermarriage?

Ray was generalizing about all Reform Jews, and I admit I was wrong when I took his bait and then made the same mistake in generalizing about all Orthodox, which of course isn't true, and certainly not of any of the ones that I know personally. I have acquaintances from across the entire Jewish spectrum, from an atheistic ex-Jew to a pious Lubavitcher, and we could all care less which "movement" each other identifies with because it can change during the course of one's lifetime. We all get along just fine. But one bad apple can spoil the whole barrel, and comments like Ray's can put a bad taste in the mouths of others.

A person is entitled to their opinion, but if that opinion could hurt others, it shouldn't be voiced. I apologize for offending anyone. Some may feel that being Reform isn't a very Jewish thing to do, but to others, it's a very Jewish thing to do. We all need to be careful about how we speak of each other because we are supposed to be part of the same people. And someone from outside the mishpacha may be listening.

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To Heidi

Author: Susan (---.milwaukee.k12.wi.us)
Date: 01-25-01 19:09

 Am I to be . . . told that I do not share in a Jewish heritage? 

Of course not! I think Ray was wrong if he was trying to imply that Martin Buber doesn't share in the Jewish heritage, either. But I'm not sure that he was trying to. If he was simply trying to say that Martin Buber is not the best representative of what Judaism has to offer, then I would have to say I agree with that assessment.

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To Susan and Ray

Author: Heidi (206.11.253.---)
Date: 01-26-01 00:41

Here is where I wish to argue semantics. For example: my ancestors came from Germany in the mid-1800's (in case you couldn't tell by my name.) I was not born there, I do not speak German (very much or well ), I do not keep any German customs, heck, I don't even really like most German food. Yet, I still have a German heritage. What I am not a part of is German tradition. Most people associate the word "heritage" with lineage, ancestry and background, and "tradition" with customs, practices, mores and beliefs. I can accept people saying that Reform is not really a part of traditional Judaism. That's an absolute truth. But to deny that it shares the same heritage? That's a stretch. Had this Ray guy said that Buber and Reform were not traditionally Jewish, I would have wholeheartedly agreed, and this never would have been an issue.

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About Martin Buber...

Author: Todd (---.proxy.aol.com)
Date: 01-26-01 11:47

I have been reading a book that I shall now recommend to anyone who does not know who Martin Buber is, or what he is all about.

It is titled Ten Rungs - Hasidic Sayings and it is written by Martin Buber.

Susan wrote," I think Ray was wrong if he was trying to imply that Martin Buber doesn't share in the Jewish heritage, either. But I'm not sure that he was trying to. If he was simply trying to say that Martin Buber is not the best representative of what Judaism has to offer, then I would have to say I agree with that assessment."

How can anyone say that Buber is 'not the best representative of what Judaism has to offer'? After reading Buber's work it was impossible for me to ever think that!

A question that he answered:

Q: Why is it written: 'Justice, justice, shalt thou follow' [Deut. 16:20]? Why is the word 'justice' repeated?

He answered: "We ought to follow justice with justice, and not with unrighteousness. That means; The use of unrighteousness as a means to a righteous end makes the end itself unrighteous; injustice as a means to justice renders justice unjust."

Another kernel of wisdom:

"For there is no rung of being on which we cannot find the holiness of God everywhere and at all times"

Martin Buber most certainly is expressing the qualities of Judaism that has strenghtened many and attracted many to it.

Despite rabbinical opposition, Hasidism won a tremendous following among East European Jews. For it told them that the longing for God in the heart of a simple man, rather than the overemphasis on erudition, was the essence of religion.

It is the heart and soul of Hillel and Pirkei Avot and Torah that Buber expresses most ecstatically!

This is a man who most certainly is a Jewish treasure, one who absolutely is one of the best representatives of what Judaism has to offer.

To deny this is to live in a world a little too small, a little too unjoyous.

Everyone who reads this posting, Read the book I refered to. Treat yourselves.

p.s. Heidi, you are a great person.

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Response to Todd

Author: Heidi (206.11.253.---)
Date: 01-26-01 12:02

Thank you Todd. You made my day. I will definitely read that book.

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To Todd

Author: Susan (---.milwaukee.k12.wi.us)
Date: 01-26-01 17:33


How can anyone say that Buber is 'not the best representative of what Judaism has to offer'? After
reading Buber's work it was impossible for me to ever think that! 

One can say it if one knows enough about some of the other representatives. Am I to presume that you think Buber outshines Akiva, Maimonides, and the Baal Shem Tov, Abraham Joshua Heschel, and Menachem Scheerson? I would like to read you explanation of why you would rate Buber higher than Heschel.

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software test

Author: InterfaithFamily.com editor (---.ne.mediaone.net)
Date: 09-13-01 11:47

Ignore this posting please--just testing software.

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Why No Discussion?

Author: Joe (---.rasserver.net)
Date: 01-21-02 20:40

It seems odd that, given the past 15 months of horrific events in Israel, and the range of reactions to those events in the Christian world, that there has been absolutely no discussion on this board. Differences in feelings about and identification with Israel between spouses in an interfaith marriage has been often cited by intermarried couples as a big source of friction. This has been evidenced in many ways, including a featured discussion on this web site. The silence is curious -- and deafening. It's probably not an issue for some intermarried couples--either because the couple is in the same place on the issue or the issue just isn't on the radar screen at all. But for others, there must be some bumps in the road to work out.

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A Letter from Israel

Author: miri (---.rlz.netvision.net.il)
Date: 01-22-02 03:31

dear friends,
For all who are far away but close in heart...
A Letter from Israel is a biweekly newsletter written in English and in Hebrew, designed as a personal letter for Israelis and Jews around the world. Please visit and enjoy.
Shalom from Israel
Miri

www.newsletter-israel.com

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Author: Bryce (---.ipt.aol.com)
Date: 01-30-02 15:38

Joe, you're so right. I read the following, umm, "insightful" comment on the web, by one of IFF's regular posters. But, due to reasons of courtesy, I must leave out the author's name:

"The problem is: I'm sick and tired of reading about the same old,
same old Israeli-Arab dispute. If they want peace, then let them
make peace. If they want war, so be it! I'm just sick and tired of it all;
a plague on both their houses. I no longer care."

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