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Discussion Archive: A Patrilineal Jewish Teen Visits Israel Where He I - Page 1
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| Clueless |
Author: Ian B. Pinkus (---.publib.brandeis.edu)
Date: 07-11-00 12:20
BS"D
I think what Adam is missing is someone to properly explain to him why he is not Jewish. It has nothing to do with peoples' "preposterous" ideas or with people thinking that they are superior. Rather, the halacha is very clear that one is only Jewish if he is born of a Jewish mother or has a halachic conversion. That's it. Black and White. Case Closed. Just because someone feels a connection to something (i.e. Judaism) doesn't make that person Jewish. To be Jewish is an inherent thing. If I feel that I am of African descent; I really connect to African culture, celebrate African holidays, eat African foods- this still does not make it so if my parents and my heritage is not African. I may feel or long to be a part of that particular culture, but my lot in life is that I am not an African.
It is the same kind of thing. Judaism is passed down through the mother and has nothing to do with how one feels about being Jewish. Someone born to a Jewish mother who keeps no mitzvos and doesn't know anything about Judaism except that he is Jewish, is still 100% Jewish. Whereas someone born to a non-Jewish mother is 100% non-Jewish. This is according to the Torah, halacha, thousands of years of tradition, and it is not about to change now because some non-Jews "feel" a connection to the Jewish people. This doesn't mean that they can not be good people. The Torah also contains seven commandments for the whole world; the Sheva Mitzvos b'nei Noach. Perhaps Adam should discuss this with a Rabbi to find out how to properly fulfill these seven commandments and in doing so, fulfilling the will of G-D and further connecting to Hashem.
B'hatzlacha Raba,
Ian |
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Author: Susan (---.milwaukee.k12.wi.us)
Date: 07-11-00 15:47
If Adam Case really wants to be considered a Jew, he can certainly undergo conversion. Unfortunately, I fear that his love of Judaism is not as strong as his resentment against those who uphold tradition and who don't accept Mr. Case's patrilineal descent views. |
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| Why can't the entire Jewish world recognize Adam? |
Author: Susan (---.milwaukee.k12.wi.us)
Date: 07-13-00 12:26
Surely someone warned Adam's dad when he chose to marry a non-Jewish woman that their children wouldn't be Jews according to halacha. But instead of taking the halacha seriously, he went ahead and married Adam's mom anyway, either because it didn't matter to him at the time or because of some wishful thinking on his part that halacha would change and the entire Jewish world would come around to his way of thinking. But halacha hasn't changed and now he blames his predicament on all those mean ol' Orthodox and Conservative Jews who still uphold tradition. The Unitarians don't condemn the continued existence of the Catholic church and insist that all Catholics defect to the Unitarian church. Mr. Case has such a hard time accepting the continued existence of this point of Jewish law, however, that he misleads his child and even encourages the boy to write a piece protesting against it under the guise of a "My trip to Israel" story. It is a sad case, isn't it? |
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| Adam Case's Israel Trip |
Author: A Jew (---.z208176094.bos-ma.dsl.cnc.net)
Date: 07-13-00 14:07
Dear Adam,
You are a Jew. To heck with anyone who says you're not. Now, go be Jewish and stop wasting your time fretting about what other people say about you. Good luck. |
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| wrong......... |
Author: Jw (---.citlink.net)
Date: 07-13-00 20:38
your wrong....... Nationhood comes form your father its BIBLCAL.. try to find where its anything but that..... what does Adam do with that half of his heritage? throw it in the toilet?? what does African have to do with it hes half Jewish according to him so why cant you except that?? wishfull thinking?? dosnt he have the right to claim that??? who are the orthodox rabbis to say no?? G-d has the final say... and its clear according to the holy scriptures who is a JEW he would have been good enough for hitler to throw in the camps...so whats your big dam problem? im sick and tired of people like you who are guilty of the same holocost .. and unfortunatly this law as you call it has done more damege to the Jewish people Halcha smalacah... Matrilinal decent is a big lie and a rabbinical add on.. its not thousands and thousands of years old.. God did not make a covenant with Sarah.. and the mothers... nor did pharoh kill all the new born female children.. if decent was matrilinal he cetainly would have killed them.. to stop the Jewish nation... BTW FYI The Father carries the Jewish SEED not the mother if your talking inherant or biological bio 101 the father is the only one who has the family blood line the mothers blood does not even enter the child blood system it has a seprate blood system apart from his mother although the mother supplies the palcenta with nurtition it does not flow to the childs own blood stream SO how does that grab ya?? what ever your fathers is thats what your blood line is and if your father is African as you say.. or gentile then thats what you ARE how does that make you feel??? does it make you feel really good? to know perhaps you are not what you might think you are??? How doe sit feel to have the tables turned for once?? I think its the other way around maybe Adams 100 percent JEwish?? by blood?/ after all there is not any percentages when it comes to blood..perhaps this is why he a a strong pull towardsISrael because hes aJEW .and if you say blood has nothing to do with it perhaps your right.. maybe its a heart thing or a faith thing so what your grip??
JW |
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| Adam |
Author: Sylvia (---.nc.us.ibm.com)
Date: 07-14-00 12:06
It really wouldn't matter if Adam converted, because if it wasn't an Orthodox conversion, it wouldn't be a valid conversion for some Jews. Even if his mother had converted before his birth, her conversion would not be valid for some Jews if not an Orthodox conversion. So, Adam, I wouldn't worry about it. Unless you are going to make aliyah to Israel, or marry an Orthodox girl, most Jews are not going to care one way or the other. You are Jewish to them. When you marry try to find a nice Jewish girl (whatever definition of Jewish is important to you) who shares your values and have nice Jewish children. Only insecure people worry about what others think about them, or try to make those people change their minds. |
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| Reform Movement's Position |
Author: Rabbi Joel Sisenwine (---.home.net)
Date: 07-14-00 12:39
Since the recent discussion has turned to the question of "Who is a Jew?" I would like to clarify the Reform Rabbinate's response concerning what is now known as "patrilineal descent." According to Reform Judaism, Adam Case's identity is Jewish.
According to a statement from the Reform Rabbinic organization (the CCAR) "the child of one Jewish parent (in this case Adam Case) is under the presumption of Jewish descent. This presumption of the Jewish status of the offspring of any mixed marriage is to be established through appropriate and timely public and formal acts of identification with the Jewish faith and people... mitzvot leading toward a positive and exclusive Jewish identity will include entry into the covenant, acquisition of a Hebrew name, Torah study, Bar/bat mitzvah, and Confirmation."
In other words, if you have a Jewish mother or father and are raised as a Jew, observing Jewish rituals, you are Jewish. While this statement represents a break from the halachic tradition, it is not foreign to Jewish life. In fact, during the Biblical and post-Biblical period, Jewish identity was passed on through the father. This is true of several biblical characters. A remnant of this is found today's Orthodox community, in which the passing of priestly descent occurs through the father. (if your father is a cohen, you are cohen) The "patrilineal descent" decision, while controversial, is another example of an evolving Jewish civilization bound by a relevant and ever-changing legal code. (halacha)
Our movements will disagree. The state of Israel will continue to struggle with the definition of Jewish identity. But let us honor those who honestly struggle with these matters and respect the diversity that exists within our Jewish community. I hope that we can continue to discuss this issue in an honest and respectful environment. |
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Author: Susan (---.milwaukee.k12.wi.us)
Date: 07-14-00 14:24
Sylvia is probably right that Adam probably won't need an orthodox conversion unless he marries an orthodox woman or tried to move to Israel. He should be encouraged to stay involved with Judaism and the Jewish community and to try to live a Jewish life. Many people are of the opinion that he is Jewish already, including, probably, himself, both his parents, our highly articulate new friend "Jw," and Rabbi Joel Sisenwine and his movement here in the U.S. I never even said he wasn't. It continues to trouble me, though, that Adam seems so intolerant of the fact that some of the Jews of the world still believe in and follow halacha. They have as much right to their convictions as he has to his own. People who claim to be Jews should be more respectful of and less hostile toward Jewish tradition.
Now I just hope nobody jumps in and attacks Sylvia as bigoted and judgmental for suggesting that Adam should try to marry a Jewish woman and raise Jewish children! |
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Author: Pete (---.citlink.net)
Date: 07-14-00 18:12
One of the greatest thrills and expectations in any home, is the birth of children. In a Jewish home the birth of children in general is also a happy occasion, but specifically the birth of 'a son' is hailed as a visitation from GOD Himself. It is through the son that according to The Scriptures, the family name as well as it's heritage is passed on from generation to generation. Interestingly enough, once again we find man trying to change what The Almighty GOD established at the beginning! In this case, it is the people of Israel, the Jewish people, that for several centuries now, have insisted that it is through the 'daughter' or the woman, that "Jewishness" is established. In Israel today, and wherever Jewish people live; if a child is born to a Jewish woman, then that child is considered Jewish. While according to The Word of GOD, which is Israel's "MANUAL OF LIFE", it is the Father's seed that determines the nature of the child as a Jewish new born son or daughter. Understandably, there are many and various positions as to, "Who is a Jew?", and I am not in anyway intending to propose a debate, but rather to show forth how we ostensibly try and try to change GOD's mind through our own misconceptions, but thanks be unto our LORD, that, "The word of our GOD shall stand forever." (Isaiah 40:8). Therefore, a child that is born from the seed of a Jewish man, according to The Word of GOD, IS JEWISH. For it is through the man, that "the seed" of humanity is passed on from generation to generation. However, there is 'one' and only one exception |
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Author: Rabbi Zvi (---.citlink.net)
Date: 07-14-00 19:45
let me tell you something in case if you do not know... Jewishness is based on God's high calling given to Avrahaam....."faith in G-d"
I will explain here why Matrilinal decent is blatantly wrong by a rather shocking example. AND If you do not accept that a proselyte is not a Jew as well , according to the Deuteronomy 23:3, "An Ammonite or Moabite shall not enter into the congregation of the LORD; even to their tenth generation shall they not enter into the congregation of the LORD for ever," Ruth's decedents should not have been allowed to join in the Jewish congregation for at least next ten generations. "There were no " Orthodox conversions" at this time.. However, King David was only three generations down from Ruth (please read Ruth 4:21-22 to confirm for yourself). In other words, if you insist that Ruth was accepted as a proselyte but not as a Jew in face of this strict law, you are forced to conclude that the King David and his decendants were not Jews . Is that OK with you? |
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Author: Rabbi Zvi (---.citlink.net)
Date: 07-14-00 19:46
let me tell you something in case if you do not know... Jewishness is based on God's high calling given to Avrahaam....."faith in G-d"
I will explain here why Matrilinal decent is blatantly wrong by a rather shocking example. AND If you do not accept that a proselyte is not a Jew as well , according to the Deuteronomy 23:3, "An Ammonite or Moabite shall not enter into the congregation of the LORD; even to their tenth generation shall they not enter into the congregation of the LORD for ever," Ruth's decedents should not have been allowed to join in the Jewish congregation for at least next ten generations. "There were no " Orthodox conversions" at this time.. However, King David was only three generations down from Ruth (please read Ruth 4:21-22 to confirm for yourself). In other words, if you insist that Ruth was accepted as a proselyte but not as a Jew in face of this strict law, you are forced to conclude that the King David and his decendants were not Jews . Is that OK with you? |
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Author: Grandpa (---.proxy.aol.com)
Date: 07-14-00 21:31
I have read with great interest the discussions concerning Adams article and his feelings for Isreal and his feeling for being a Jew. It would seem to me that young people who have this desire to be Jewish, study the Torah and practice our traditions, should be encourage not discourage by our well meaning Jewish follks. Why must they keep insisting on putting obstacles in the way of these young people , instead of accepting them and helping them to become firmly entrenched in the Jewish Religion |
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Author: Dave (---.proxy.aol.com)
Date: 07-15-00 23:47
1/ If you believe the reform definition of a Jew, which includes mention of confirmations as a necessary part of Judaism, (see the post on this) then you would have to say that Orthodox Jews aren't Jews.
2/ The tribe and the tribe only are handed down via the father |
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| Matrilineal descent |
Author: Susan (---.milwaukee.k12.wi.us)
Date: 07-16-00 10:32
Well, this is just peachy. Now I learn that according to Rabbi Zvi I'm not a Jew either, because my mother is one but my father isn't! Then again, if matrilineal descent is blatantly wrong, then Ishmael was a Jew. It appears that the Arabs are the true Jews and the Israelis are not. Quick! Somebody tell Yasser Arafat. Maybe the answer to the middle east conflict is easier than we all thought. |
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Author: Rabbi Zvi (---.citlink.net)
Date: 07-16-00 14:04
I dont believe G-d said through "Ishmael" your seed shall be called.. so How can The arabs be The jews?? but through "Issac your seed shall be called"and its thus The Jewish nation was born.. you are putting words in my mouth. I said A strict matrilinal decent is wrong.. all though you can certainly call your self a Jew and Identify with being Jewish if your mother is a Jewish or if either parent or grandparent is a Jew.. but ones nation and JEwishness and tribal Identiy is from their father... according to the Torah... quite your whinning... |
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Author: Rabbi Elias (---.citlink.net)
Date: 07-16-00 14:41
Who is a Jew?" I am of the persuasion that the TaNaKH finally authoritatively answers this age-old question. I expect that quite a few other rabbis might disagree with me, citing various rabbinical sources and such. But this rabbi still stands on the unchanging, unbiased, error-free Word of HaShem as the Final Authority—period. By addressing this issue first, I believe your subsequent question will take care of itself. I don’t presume my lists to be 100% comprehensive, rather, just the highlights.
Born into the natural lineage of Avraham
Father is of this lineage, or willingly converted to this lineage
Mother is of this lineage, or willingly converted to this lineage
Male children are circumcised on the eighth day, in accordance with the covenant
One G-d-given Torah exists for everyone in the community, and anyone who actively, and by faith, participates, is part of the community
Etymologically, one who was/is from the Tribe of Judah, the region of Judea, or a follower of the Jewish religion. The Hebrew word literally means "One who praises YAH
" Who is a Jew?" A Jew is anyone who willingly or decidedly falls into one or more of the categories from one list, the other list, or both combined. as far as stirct matrilinal decent ..I’m not too sure HaShem and his Torah would feel the same way. "
The modern thinker needs to remind himself that this is the way that HaShem sees them on this issue, regardless of where the Rabbis or Synagogues might disagree! And HaShem knows who they are, even if we don’t. Likewise, every person who calls himself ) a Jew is not necessarily a genuine one or a Good Jew either. To be sure, the Torah recognizes these fakes too..The full scope of being a loyal Jew includes involvement in the Jewish community and support for Isra’el. However, it means as well the preservation of the very historic-biblical roots of our heritage, which make these involvements possible… Not all will be able to fully give themselves to the whole of the Jewish heritage, but as loyal Jews, we do so the extent that we can in the Spirit’s leading" Historically, when Jews became disinterested, by faith, with HaShem, then he becomes equally disinterested with them. Covenants require a response on the part of the participants. HaShem has never reneged on his part of the agreement!
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| go Adam go |
Author: maggie (---.d48.lilly.com)
Date: 07-20-00 15:36
Adam, I really enjoyed your articulate and thoughtful article. I do wish to make a comment to "Susan." I am intrigued by how many times you seem to contradict yourself. First of all, you suggest that if Adam "really wants to be considered a Jew" that he convert. Then, you group him among "people who claim to be Jews." Then you mention that you "never said he wasn't" Jewish. Adam, if you are confused, I strongly share your sentiment. I think that people making such strong assertions about your legitimacy in an accusatory way only to serve to divide Jewish people and to instill you with personal doubt. If I were you, I would continue a strong association with the Reform movement (who considers you 100% Jewish by citable statements) and review the various Israeli court cases involving people such as yourself, desiring on recognition as a Jew. I think writing your article was a strong step in the right direction and I admire your courage, as public comment on such a controversial topic invites some degree of adversity. Keep up the strength and tolerance. |
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| No reason for Maggie's confusion |
Author: Susan (---.milwaukee.k12.wi.us)
Date: 07-20-00 19:42
Maggie, you addressed me and implied that I contradicted myself. Adam Case has complained because some Jews, including Israelis and those who follow halacha, don't recognize him as Jewish. I explained that he could satisfy them by formally converting to Judaism. If you go back and carefully read what I've written here, I have not stated my own views on his status. What I have done is to criticize his attitude toward halacha. People who follow Jewish tradition have as much right to their views on the "Who is a Jew?" question as the Case family. I think he should develop more respect and tolerance for Jews with other views and graciously agree to disagree. |
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| Your mom would be proud |
Author: Annie (---.245.117.90.Weehawken1.Level3.net)
Date: 07-24-00 10:34
Adam, it was a very nice article and if I were your mother I'd be very proud. Our family sounds quite a bit like yours - I am not Jewish - my husband is - but we have a home that is more Jewish than many of my husband's relatives. I don't know if I will convert someday, I may, I may not. At any rate, it's 'too late' for my two children, ages 2 & 3, for them to be considered born of a Jewish mother. We're a proudly Reform family.
I know your mother appreciates what a great kid she has - I hope your whole family is very proud of you!
And I TOTALLY empathize with your discomfort surrounding the "only marrying a Jewish girl" comment made by one of the trip leaders.
Knowing my affinity and connection to Judaism, close friends have told me that they're proud that their children have said they will only date or marry someone who is Jewish. My position, though, is that if a child's connection to Judaism is strong then their heart will only lead them to a mate who can embrace Judaism (whether that mate is a Jew or not). I would rather one of my children marry a person who is good, kind and respectful of Judaism than someone who is halachacly Jewish but has no interest in the faith on a day to day level and would prefer not to attend services, light candles or celebrate holidays. |
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| Adam |
Author: Jennifer (---.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net)
Date: 07-26-00 14:47
Hello Adam,
As a Jew by choice, I have read all of the comments to your article with great interest. I converted in my late-twenties based purely on my own convictions, not because of marriage. As so, while all the dialogue concerning your article is intellectually stimulating (or not, as the case may be), I have to say that the essential thing to remember is the statement by Rabbi Zvi; "Jewishness is based ON GOD'S HIGH CALLING given to Avrahaam....."faith in G-d" (Emphesis added)
When people ask me why I chose to be Jewish, the only honest response for me is, It chose me. I experienced a calling from God. That calling, Adam, did not come in the form of written laws handed down by Rabbis. It was only something I experienced. And truthfully, as much as I try to impart the significance of the experience to other people, there is no way to do so. More importantly, no other person, be it Rabbi or anyone else, can validate or invalidate His call to me.
While being an accepted part of the Jewish community is important, and Israel is important, they are NOT more important than your relationship with God. If you are committed to that relationship, than there is nothing or no one who can take that from you. And as God reveals Himself to you, YOUR community will gather around you. |
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| trip to holy land |
Author: ellen (---.ne.mediaone.net)
Date: 01-16-01 22:06
Adam,
I found your article when I was looking for options to travel to the Holy Land for a summer trip. If you check this page, if you have any suggestions, can you send them to me? thanks, ellen |
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| response |
Author: Adam Case (---.ne.mediaone.net)
Date: 01-21-01 16:39
I thought the NFTY trip was great, personally. I've also heard good things
about the Young Judea trips and HSI, or high school in Israel. All of these
programs do a good job, it just depends how long you want to stay in Israel
and what kind of things you'd like to do. Some of the longer NFTY trips give
more choices about what you can do for parts of the summer. |
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Author: IFF editor (---.ne.mediaone.net)
Date: 12-18-01 10:42
Ignore, this is just a test. |
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"Going up" in Hebrew. The honor of going to the front of the synagogue to say the blessing over a portion of the Torah reading. Can also refer to the act of immigrating to Israel. (e.g. "After falling in love with Jerusalem, Rachel and Christopher made aliyah.")
In modern Jewish practice, Jewish girls come of age at 12 or 13. When a girl comes of age, she is officially a Bat Mitzvah (\'daughter of the commandments\'). The term is commonly used as a short-hand for the Bat Mitzvah\'s coming-of-age ceremony and/or celebration. The male equivalent is "Bar Mitzvah."
Coming-of-age ritual when Jewish children turn 16 or 18.
People who attend and worship at a given synagogue.
God. In traditional Jewish circles, it is forbidden to write or say God\'s name, so God is typically written with the vowel (o) replaced by a hyphen.
Jewish law, as interpreted by the rabbis.
According to Jewish law, as interpreted by the rabbis.
"The Name" in Hebrew. Used as a substitute for the Hebrew name for God, which religious Jews are forbidden from uttering outside of prayer.
The language of Judaism. Used in prayer in most synagogues and the official language of the state of Israel. Also refers to Jews, especially before they entered Israel and were given the Torah, as in "the ancient Hebrews."
Religious obligation or commandments; good deeds.
Spiritual leader and teacher. Typically, but not always, leads a congregation.
The first five books of the Hebrew Bible, or the scroll that contains them.
The Hebrew scriptures. Hebrew acronym for Torah, Nevi\'im (Prophets) Ketuvim (Writings).
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