FDR Greatgrandon A Rabbinical Student - Page 1

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Author: InterfaithFamily.com Editor (---.home.net)
Date: 12-28-00 14:52

What do you think about the fact that a descendant of Franklin D. Roosevelt is becoming a rabbi?

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Author: Carol Ann (---.home.net)
Date: 12-29-00 13:22

I find it fascinating. Little by little, through intermarriage, the most Blueblood families are becoming sensitized to Jewish issues. In that way, I believe that interfaith marriages are quite good for the Jewish community.

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FDR_Greatgrandson_a_Rabbinical_Student

Author: mpfreed (---.jakinternet.co.uk)
Date: 12-30-00 13:57

It is fascinating but, unfortunately, for every one coming back to Judaism there must be a hundred who are lost.

Murray Freedman

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fdr great grandson

Author: sandra barletta (---.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net)
Date: 01-03-01 19:04

It was fascinating to me that in your article about FDR it was never mentioned that the "Ship of Fools" would never have happened if this President would have allowed those Jews who died afterwards to enter the USA> Also that Jewish leaders from Europe begged to have the railway tracks leading to the concentration camps bombed and again this President refused. Too many Jews might have been saved. His excuse being we didn't have planes that could travel that far. However, after the war this was found to be untrue.

InterfaithFamily.com Editor wrote:
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What do you think about the fact that a descendant of Franklin D. Roosevelt is becoming a rabbi?

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Author: mpfreed (---.jakinternet.co.uk)
Date: 01-04-01 05:35

Thinking more about Carol Ann's reply I would agree that intermarriage can provide some benefit to the Jewish community. Thus, I have heard it said that the brave and successful efforts of the Denmark to save its Jewish community during the Nazi occupation was a consequence of the very high level of intermarriage current in the community. In most cases the Danes were literally only trying to save members of their own families ! Nevertheless, the demographic dangers of intermarriage to the Jewish community are greater than any possible benefits that can be imagined.

Murray Freedman

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Problem or Symptom?

Author: Len (---.ptc.com)
Date: 01-04-01 19:12

Murray,

Do you believe that intermarriage is the problem or is it a symptom of something larger? Perhaps Jews don't want what Judiasm is offering today? I have been very perplexed by this question. Is there any other reference that we have for a similiar enviroment historically? What happened during that time period was the "faith" modified to better reflect the needs of that time period or was it left basically intact?

-Len

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Problem or Symptom?

Author: mpfreed (---.vip.uk.com)
Date: 01-05-01 09:48

Len,

A brief answer to your pertinent question:-

I have just read, to my astonishment, that 50% of the Buddhists in America are Jewish - and, if true, it is a fair assumption that most of them will have become adherents to Buddhism with little or no knowledge of what Judaism has on offer to them today. Therein lies the problem. Similarly, the great majority of those Jews who marry out can boast of only a weak Jewish background. (Often, as many posts to Interfaithfamily.com reveal, marrying a person of another faith makes them want to study more about their heritage, and I suppose you could count that as a benefit of intermarriage !). Supporting this assertion, surveys show that the rate of intermarriage is not uniform amongst the Jewish community but varies as one moves to the left across the religious spectrum. I have seen supporting statistics of this (Orthodox 3%,Conservative 37%, Reform 53% and secular 72%).

Intermarriage is a consequence of assimilation. It depends on the receptiveness of the host society and has been prevalent at many times in Jewish history. Spain in the Middle Ages and more recently Germany in the 19th and early 20th centuries are examples. In Germany, for instance, by the time Hitler came to power, the rate of intermarriage had achieved the high values now current in the American Jewish community.

Someone once calculated that if it would not have been for our losses down the centuries Jews would now rival the Chinese in numbers. Many, if not most, of those losses were because of persecution, pogroms and, of course, the Holocaust. Nevertheless losses due to intermarriage have not been inconsiderable. Today, when our numbers are low, the demographic consequences are profound - for, contrary to the impression given on these forums, most children of mixed marriages are not being brought up Jewish. There must be many conservation-minded Jews today, deeply concerned about wild life preservation, who fail to realise that the survival of their own people could be just as much under threat as that of some endangered species of animals.

Murray Freedman

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Problem or Symptom?

Author: mpfreed (---.vip.uk.com)
Date: 01-05-01 10:07

Len,

It occurs to me that I didn't answer the last part of your question as to whether the "faith" was modified to better reflect the needs of that time period or was it left basically intact?

There have been some slight modifications over the centuries -halacha is more dynamic than people think - but the major changes came 200 years ago with the start of Reform in Germany. Most of the affiliated Jews in the US are now either R or C, both of which have made major concessions to the modern zeitgeist, but with little success (as my previous figures show) in stemming losses due to intermarriage.

There is a constant cry that Judaism should be more receptive of the intermarrieds and stretch out to them and other Jews on the fringes - but this, in my opinion, is just a way of demanding that Judaism should be diluted even more to accommodate them. A milk-and -water religion ends up in attracting and retaining no one. The only growth area of the Jewish community is the Orthodox which make no such concessions. There must be a moral there.

Murray Freedman

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Your responses

Author: Len (---.ptc.com)
Date: 01-05-01 19:00

Murray,

I think you need to speak to some of those Buddhists and get a better idea of what is going on. It is true there are a lot of Jews who don't know any better, but there are also quite a bit of Jews who are walking away from Judiasm with a full knowledge of what it offers. I am talking about the people who attended sunday school, had bnai mitzvah, were confirmed, and then decided this isn't for me.

The orthodox are not the answer, for the most part (men in black) they are isolationists. They deal with modern civilization at the lowest possible level. Look at New York, they isolate themselves in their own neighborhoods and how much interaction do they allow their children to have with non-Jews. When you combine isolationist tendencies with a high birth rate of course you will have large population growth for the isolated demographic. If I stuck a bunch of Jews on an island and give them no access to an other people of course they would all produce Jews. Additionally, I would argue that these individuals are not fullfilling the mitzvah of being a light unto the nations, not to mention some of the complete weirdos these groups can produce. Bostoner rebbe and crew anyone? Total disrespect for civil law because the rebbe found a halachic prohibition against it to his benifit. Don't get me wrong the Orthodox do have a lot to offer, especially their devotion, but they are not the saving grace to this problem.

I will say that the "modern" Orthodox are the group we need to be looking at. What are the intermarriage statistics for that demographic? I'm sure it's closer to the conservative/reform numbers. The reason I pose this question is because the modern Orthodox interact with society on a much closer level.

As to your final point, Christianity had quite a lot of success with intermarriage as does Islam. In fact Christianity has done so well that many Jews know more about the message of the Christians than they do of the Torah. Considering their success with inclusion why would it be any different for the Jews?

(If these is getting out of hand let's take this to another message board)

-Len

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My further response

Author: mpfreed (---.vip.uk.com)
Date: 01-06-01 15:01

Len,

Nothing short of a scientific survey of these Jewish Buddhists would give us the answer, but I am totally convinced that most will not have had a proper Jewish upbringing. Just studying a couple of years for Bar/Batmitzvah or Confirmation is not enough to capture the allegiance of many bright youngsters. Often they learn Jewish values, concepts and practices that are completely at variance with what they see being observed at home - that is the basis of conflict and it is easy to see which influence is going to win out in the end.

We live in a society which is becoming more and more secular. Not only are there lapsed Jews but lapsed Catholics, Methodists etc. Compared to the latter, however, the number of Jews is small and we suffer more demographically by our defections. Buddhism is one of those Eastern religions which to many convey more spirituality than the Christianity or Judaism into which they were born. For Jews in particular they are attractive for there are, for example, no worries about eating anything you want, and no need even to think about having to adopt the suffocating imposition of all those 613 mitzvot day in and day out.

The Orthodox may not be the answer for most people but one has to admit, whether one likes it or not, that their isolationism -as you put it - is the perfect survival strategy. As I have already intimated they are the only group within the Jewish community that is growing - and quite quickly. If in a couple of generations the Orthodox make up more than half a depleted US Jewish community it will be too late to complain and they will only have been allowed to do so by the rest of Jews who show relative unconcern about Jewish continuity.

My personal proclivities are for the "modern" Orthodox. I would agree that there is a mitzvah of "being a light unto the nations" which they (the strictly Orthodox) are plainly not observing. They do have some sort of excuse in that they are still building up their population and institutions after the ravages of the Holocaust in which they perhaps suffered more pro rata. It will be interesting to see whether they do "open up" in the coming years - but I doubt it.

To me in this connection, an important text is Shemot (Exodus) X1X,6. "You shall be unto me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation". The verse implies the paradox of being priests to the world - and therefore having to interact with it - and yet having to remain 'holy' i.e. separate from it. Observing it is like walking a tightrope and inevitably involves risks (like losses due to intermarriage). Nevertheless it appears to me that we are enjoined to take those risks - whilst to the strictly Orthodox, at the moment, the level of those risks is unacceptable.

As for the modern Orthodox, as you would expect they are somewhere in between
Conservatives and the strictly Orthodox in the attributes of birth rate and levels of intermarriage.

If many Jews know more about the message of Christianity than of Torah that surely must be a reflection on the Jewish education they have had (or not had) and that also the Christian message is very persuasive in obvious and sometimes subtle and subliminal ways amongst the majority society. (After all, reverting to statistics, in the US, Jews make up only two out of every hundred of the population most of whom are nominally Christian) That, to me, also explains why they seem to have more success with inclusion than the Jews.

Shavua Tov,

Murray Freedman

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Intermarriage and Jewish Survival

Author: Jenny Genser (---.tnt4.lorton.va.da.uu.net)
Date: 01-15-01 17:54

It seems to me that if you are an observant Jew, active in your temple, and involved, but also participating and integrated in the greater society, you may intermarry, but you will probably insist on raising your children Jewish. In that case, intermarriage is not the problem and could indeed add to the Jewish numbers. This is especially true in the case of Jewish women who are thirty-something and face the choice of marrying a gentile or staying single because a suitable male Jewish partner has not come along.

I think the bigger problem is that upon coming to America and joining the great American middle-class, Jewish families rejected much of their tradition, joined a temple that gave a very watered down Judaism, taught their kids to memorize the Torah portion for their Bar Mitzvah and then said "oy veh" when their kids married gentiles and did not raise Jewish kids.

I see that happening much less today among synagogue-affiliated Jews. Even Reform Judaism, the big bogey-man in the declining Jewry tale, is much more robust than it was a generation ago.

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Intermarriage and Jewish Survival

Author: mpfreed (---.jakinternet.co.uk)
Date: 01-15-01 18:25

Jenny,

There is much sense in what you write. But the problem is that if you are an observant Jew, active in your synagogue, and involved, you are less likely to intermarry than someone who is not so Jewishly involved.

You say that, if intermarriage does take place in that case it is not a problem and could add to the Jewish numbers. This is especially true in the case of Jewish women who are thirty-something and face the choice of marrying a gentile or staying single because a suitable male Jewish partner has not come along.

I recognise the latter problem - and it affects more than a few young Jewish women. I wouldn't bank on it adding substantially to Jewish numbers however. The reality is somewhat different. I have in my postings quoted, almost ad nauseam, the fact that only a minority of the children of mixed unions are being brought up Jewish.

>I think the bigger problem is that upon coming to America and joining the great >American middle-class, Jewish families rejected much of their tradition, joined a >>the Torah portion for their Bar Mitzvah and then said "oy veh" when their kids >married gentiles and did not raise Jewish kids. I see that happening much less >today among synagogue-affiliated Jews. Even Reform Judaism, the big bogey->man in the declining Jewry tale, is much more robust than it was a generation >ago.

You are right in your diagnosis and it is heartening that there is a general return to tradition even by Reform (apart from its divisive patrilineal decision).

Murray Freedman

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Len's Message Number 9

Author: Susan (---.milwaukee.k12.wi.us)
Date: 01-18-01 21:55

Len:

It shows an astonishing lack of information to claim that the people who
attended sunday school, had bnai mitzvah, were confirmed, and then decided this isn't for me are walking away from Judiasm with a full knowledge of what it offers. 

Do you accuse Catholics of deal[ing] with modern civilization at the lowest possible level? I wonder how many real live orthodox Jews you actually know.

From what you write here, I gather that you are not actually in an intermarriage at this time, but you keep coming back to arguing about the relative merits of the different denominations of Judaism. What do you say we leave this site to the people who want to discuss their in-laws and meet at www.shmooze.com? Murray?

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ignore posting, testing software

Author: IFF editors (---.ne.mediaone.net)
Date: 12-18-01 13:31

ignore posting, testing software

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Author: Bryce (---.proxy.aol.com)
Date: 12-30-01 13:52

This post isn't really about FDR's grandson, but the idea is similar:
Did you know that Leon Trotsky's grandson is a rabbi in Israel? For those who don't know who Trotsky was, it should come as a shock to find his grandson making such a huge life-style change. This should come as a wake-up call to all you Jews who don't think so much about your heritage and religion -- thinking you'll never be interested in it, and using that apathy to guide you in your dating choices -- because if grandson-Trotsky can re-prioritize his life, so can you. And I'm including myself in that wake-up call.

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Author: mpfreed (---.proxy.aol.com)
Date: 12-31-01 04:53

There must be many other examples of this return to one's religious roots evcen after the passage of a few generations - though most of the movement has been the other way. Nevertheless the Baal Teshuva movement (returnees to religion) has been quite significant in recent decades and has added to the vigourous growth of Orthodoxy in many parts of the Jewish world.

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FDR Greatgrandon A Rabbinical Student - Page 1

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