Fighting Intermarriage - Page 1 - InterfaithFamily.com

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Welcome to our discussions!

Author: InterfaithFamily.com Editors
Date: 03-27-02 13:48

We're pleased to tell you that we've changed our online discussions--and we invite you to join them! When you submit a message, it will be reviewed by our moderators before it is posted. While we will accept messages that are realistic about the challenges posed by interfaith relationships, we won't allow people to vent their opposition to intermarriage, as has happened in the past. Our goal is to make our discussions a welcoming and safe place for people dealing with interfaith relationships to turn for helpful information and support. So please--join our discussions!

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Why this forum topic?

Author: Felicia
Date: 05-06-02 07:58

I find it a bit confusing that this discussion topic even exists in this forum.

On one hand, you clearly state in the forum rules that you "won't allow people to vent their opposition to intermarriage," and will censor posts that espouse that point-of-view. On the other hand, you host a discussion board titled, "Fighting Intermarriage."

Which is it? Does InterfaithFamily consider intermarriage to be good or bad? It almost sounds as though intermarriage is frowned upon, but condemning intermarriage is also frowned upon.

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Re: Felicia

Author: Ed Case
Date: 05-10-02 11:32

InterfaithFamily.com doesn't make value judgments that intermarriage is "good" or "bad." We don't promote intermarriage, but we certainly don't condemn it. We view intermarriage as a reality and we encourage Jews and the Jewish community to respond to intermarriage positively by encouraging interfaith families to make Jewish choices for themselves and their children.

This particular forum was created as a place for people to discuss efforts to prevent intermarriage. We won't censor posts that point out in a respectful way the challenges posed by interfaith relationships, including statistics. What we won't allow is hostility, sarcasm and other expressions that in the past caused our readers to tell us that they would not participate in our discussions to avoid being attacked.

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Re: Forum topic

Author: Yanky Goldenberg
Date: 05-21-02 15:07

I agree with the topic, and I agree with the forum's approach, yet it is a bit 'soft' and too accepting. Yes, intermarriage is a reality , yes, all people should be encouraged to participate in the Jewish community, yes, people should be respected, but I think the Jewish community should not bend the 2500 year old rules for intermarriage.

I think that Judaism should remain on the 'Acceptance to the club' aspect, as is, more or less. We should accept people with a real desire to become Jewish, especially dealing with mixed families. According to the sources, Ruth came from a 'Mixed' family, and she is the great grandmother of King David.

So, accept the convert, but do not accept the 'Chanuka Bush' or the Easter Matzah.
In Yiddish they say that it is 'Mixing Kasha and cheese' ( two types of food that don't belong together).

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Re:

Author: Yoni Samlan
Date: 06-17-02 16:04

heck, King Solomon, wisest of the wise and builder of the Temple, had more than a few non-Jewish wives in his harem. Of course, if you read a little further, they led him into idol worship; but that's a separate issue over there, largely having to do with the fact that his wives were idol worshippers and not monotheists of the Judeo-Christian tradition.

And Moses? Moses married the daughter of a Midianite priest. The only way to back out of that one is to say the Midianites had an ethical monotheistic tradition so he wasn't marrying into idol worship, but hey, guess what, Christians have an ethical monotheistic tradition too!

The biblical basis for the injunction against intermarriage is rather sketchy, from what i can understand; there is a commandment not to marry your children to the various tribes that inhabited Israel in Joshua's day. Then again, it also orders the complete extermination of all of those tribes; so I don't see how we can extend one rule to all non-Jews and not the other...

The cultural basis for this ruling I understand much better, and I think that there are certain times where entering an interfaith relationship is just doomed. The primary example is when one person involved believes that the other's faith is wrong ("Believing in Jesus is stupid, but I love you anyways" or "I love you even though you're going to hell for not believing in Jesus" is not the stuff lifelong love and family are built from). However, a fundamental shift in both mainstream Judaism and mainstream Christianity make non-pluralistic attitudes more and more rare. While marrying someone with similar beliefs and practices to your own still makes things easier (especially when it comes to raising kids), differing religions no longer are an insurmountable difficulty, in my opinion.

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Re:

Author: Roy Blake
Date: 01-13-03 13:23

I'm new to this site and its forums, so that's why this posting is so much later than the previous one.

I'm in favor of intermarriage! Not just tolerating it, but welcoming and encouraging it. I should mention I'm the non-Jewish (agnostic, raised Anglican) half of an intermarriage where the kids are being raised Jewish. Granted there are problems with relatives and holidays but I think there are many benefits. Our children know the Jewish tradition intimately (my son has had his Bar Mitzvah and my daughter will have her Bat Mitzvah in due course, I'm sure) but they have also gained some understanding of the Christian tradition. I've noted some anti-Christian paranoia at the local synagogue, and I expect my children will be as immune to that as they are to anti-semitism. As for myself, I haven't converted, being reluctant to give up my hard-won agnosticism, but I have found much wisdom in the Jewish tradition (as well as in the Christian tradition I was born into) and am heartily glad to know something of both.

Intermarriage of all sorts, between different religions, cultures, and races, will, I believe, help to reduce the tensions that develop when cultures exist in isolation, all too often demonizing the "other". I understand the fear Jews have, that Judaism could die out as a result, but our family's experience seems to indicate otherwise. My wife Penny is much more conscious of her Judaism now than when we were married, in a secular ceremony at city hall, almost 30 years ago.
She is a synagogue member, an occasional cantorial soloist, and a composer of Jewish music. None of this was true before we were married.
Perhaps being intermarried leads to more discussion of religion and that can lead to more religious commitment.

Of course I'm not opposed to same-religion marriages. But really, I think the fear of intermarriage is misplaced.

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Re: fighting intermarriage

Author: shmuly
Date: 03-16-03 13:38

Wow, this is a hot issue.... my keyboard is melting its so hot.

All kidding aside, it is a hot issue.
Should Jews fight intermarriage or not? If so to what degree and how.

I belive that intermarriage is something that should be fought, and fought hard. Jews should not be accepting of it in the name of diversity and openness that we hear so often in the 21st century.
Intermarriage has the potential to destroy the Jewish community as we know it. It introduces customs and beliefs into the lives of Jews who would not have been introduced to such customs and beliefs save for the intermarriage. Judaism is very clear on beliefs about God, the torah, etc. Pretty soon, it becomes okay to have a hanukkah bush. Then going to church, then so on and so on. You get the idea. Children who grow up in such an environment will be less likely to embrace Judaism simply because they are less likely to be exposed to it. Parents who intermary often have a laissez-faire attitude about religion in general.(if they didn't, they wouldnt get married in the first place)
With no strong guiding force in a child's life to direct them to one religion, a minority religion, which most of their friends would likely NOT be, the odds that a child of an intermarried couple will grow up to be a practicing Jew will be be slim to none. I have seen this, personally. I taught at a religious school where more than 1/2 the families are interfaith, and I will say that the majority of children knew next to nothing about their religion. More often then not I heard about kids going to church on christmas. It absolutley disgusted me. These are families that are lucky to show up for rosh hashanah and yom kippur services, let alone any other service. This congregation, has become known by some in the area, sadly, as "the church"...because so many of its memebrs are intermarried and just don't know very much about Judaism. THis is in no way a compliment.

If we accept intermarriage openly we risk diluting the meaning of Judaism, and what it means to be a Jews. Our religion means NOTHING if we can just simply decide, as a people, that marrying and making a familiy, with someone who is not Jewish is okay. It's not. Lets show the world our religion is more than just a label, and not support intermarriage.

Every social group in the world, no matter where you are from, has fundamental rules which have to be followed inorder to continue to be a member in that group. If not, the group won't survive.
Jews had these rules, until the dawn of the 20th century. No other social group, other than the Jews, seem to be so liberal and so open, as to risk destruction of our group by daring to openly accept people into our group who have different fundamental beleifs... who don't follow the rules- and why do we do this? ALL in the name of openness and liberalism, and being accepting, because we know what it's like not to be accepted. It feels awful not to be accepted, and yes, Jews should know. It used to be that other communities who surrounded us were the greatest threat to our existence. We however have usurped that role from our enemies, and will become a greater threat to ourselves if we accept the watering down of our faith via intermarriage. Don't think it can't happen. It can. There are actually people who call themselves Jewish who don't believe in God. Nothing is impossible, no matter how implausible. 100 years ago you'd hgave been laughed at if you called yourself 'jewish' and then proceded to state you didn't beleive in God. how times have changed.

Change can be good somethimes. It can also be bad. This kind of change withing the Jewish community is bad, make no mistake. An interfaith household is not a Jewish household. Period. If it doesn't walk like a duck, and it doesn't talk like a duck, it's NOT a duck- to make use of an old saying.
Intermarriage will decimate the Jews. WE will have no one to blame but ourselves for this. Before being so open, think of the long term consequences, and whether you really care about the Jewish people. If you do, care, then you will know that intermarriage must never be encouraged and or even accepted, by any branch of Judaism.

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Re: Shmuly's post

Author: Susan
Date: 03-26-03 12:46

[This message has been edited by the moderator.]

Shmuly,

I am truly surprised by the absence of responses to your post. I was sure that someone would write to interfaithfamily.com to argue with you, because the only reason I can see for the editors to post your ideas was to stimulate discussion.

[Editor's note: We set up this bulletin board so that people who wanted to write about fighting intermarriage could do so. We didn't expect that people who are in interfaith relationships and interested in exploring Jewish life would come to this discussion board.]

Unfortunately, your post will probably not help your cause nor convince anyone here. If anything, it will backfire by making everyone who opposes intermarriage look heartless, narrow-minded, and intolerant.

Shmuly, you write
" Pretty soon, it becomes okay to have a hanukkah bush. Then going to church, then so on and so on. You get the idea. "
Actually, Shmuly, many people see nothing wrong with hanukkah bushes and church attendance, and they will wonder "and his point is . . .?"

Shmuly, I agree that Jews are doing something wrong which drives many Jewish young people, especially young men, to marry non Jews. Partly, it is statements like yours which can alienate people who may be torn between their religion and their romantic feelings. Partly, it is the negative, smothering stereotype of Jewish women which we foster by encouraging a single-minded obsession with the hunting and catching of Jewish husbands. And part of it -- and this is where you and I agree -- is that Jews in America have done an inadequate job of educating young people about what Judaism is. I will admit that my own (Conservative) synagogue contributes to this problem by blurring the distinction between Judaism and Christianity. If we make the mistake of imitating what the churches do instead of keeping Judaism distinctive, then young Jews will really see no reason to stay Jewish.

The problem, Shmuly, is that many Jews in this country have been influenced by the dominant Christian idea that religion is about a personal relationship between the Creator and each individual. Jews who intermarry feel a deeper commitment to their non-Jewish sweethearts than they do to this abstract concept of The Jewish People. Unfortunately, by telling them that it is "disgusting" for them to let their children attend someone else's holiday celebrations, you will not endear them to Jews or Judaism.

What I think you need to do, Shmuly, is to stop condemning people for their "laissez faire" attitude toward Judaism and find ways to present Judaism as something positive. If you want to express a negative perspective on intermarriage, do it elsewhere. But for people who are intermarried or who are contemplating intermarriage, you need to try a different approach. Model those mitzvos. Let people see what beauty and meaning they can find in a Torah lifestyle. Show them what they're missing. And above all, demonstrate what mentshen some of us Jews can be!

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Re: Shmuly's post

Author: Ann
Date: 03-27-03 11:57

Susan,

Overall, I think your response was quite good.

However, one part troubles me. You say Jews have been influenced by the Christian idea that religion is about having a personal relationship between God and the individual. (Although, I'd say there is plenty of evidence in the Tanakh for saying this was originally a Jewish idea, I won't argue that one with you since there is certainly more than that to Judaism.) However, the idea you seem to set up in contrast as the 'true' Jewish commitment is abtract loyalty to the Jewish people. Let me tell you, if that what being Jewish is about, then Judaism is really in big trouble! Who in their right mind would choose a religion defined by a tribal loyalty over one defined by a personal, loving relationship with God?

Now the rest of your post reassures me that you didn't intend to set loyalty to the Jewish people up as a substitute for faith in God, but I hope you see where I'm trying to go with this.

Too often Judaism seems to get defined by that abstract loyalty or by rejecting anything Christianity embraces. (Do you know I've had Jews tell me that grace and the idea of referring to God as 'Our Father' are purely Christian things with no basis in Judaism?) There are times when I feel like at least certain segments in Judaism don't even like to talk about God for no other reason than that Christians always talk about God and the difference faith in God can make in a person's life. Ignoring 'God-talk' though tends to reduce religion to nothing more than following a set of rules. And if God isn't part of the equation, then what is the point of that and why are our rules better than anyone else's?

If we want people to choose Judaism for themselves and their children then it has to be about not just rejecting other paths and ideas, but rather about choosing a path that is positive and fulfilling and nourishing to the soul. Present it that way, and intermarriage won't matter. Present it the other way, and it won't matter either, because most will eventually drift away whether they intermarry or not.

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Re: The Jewish People or God?

Author: Susan
Date: 03-27-03 13:51

Ann:

Your question is a good one. After I posted yesterday, I actually wondered why I didn't address that point and how long it would take for somebody to bring it up. I guess all I can say is that Shmuly expressed concern about the survival of Judaism. He did not argue that about people losing their commitment to God if they abandon Judaism, and I don't think he can make that argument, because Christians also believe in God. I would say that Christianity is about a personal relationship between the individual and God, but Judaism is about a communal relationship between the Jewish People and God.

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Re: intermarriage

Author: Roy Blake
Date: 05-07-03 13:58

I can certainly understand Shmuly's concern that people are deserting Judaism by intermarrying in the first place. However, like it or not, people DO intermarry. It's inevitable when Jews are a tiny minority in a mobile society, so that most of the people they meet are gentiles, and when many Jews, as well as many Christians, are less serious about religion than they might be.

Come to think of it, it seemed to happen in biblical times as well.

To my mind, the main question is what to do after intermarriage happens. If my wife had been ostracized by the Jewish community because of her marriage to me, Judaism would have lost 3 people (my wife and our children.) On the other hand, had the local community been more welcoming of intermarried gentiles, perhaps Judaism would have gained a fourth (me).

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Re: Schmuly's Post

Author: Marty
Date: 05-15-03 19:26

I guess I don't understand. Let me get this straight. My wife is Jewish (I'm not), we have two Jewish kids that attend pre-school at the Synagogue. We attend Sabbath services occasionally -- as much as she did before we got married. We light Shabbas candles most Friday nights and attend high holiday services with her family, celebrate the major Jewish holidays either just as a family or with my in-laws. We will become members of the Temple this year and my little girl will start attending Sunday school. But because I'm not Jewish that in some way is "destroying the Jewish community as we know it"??

So if she had married a Jewish man and lived the same life, the Jewish "people" would be better for it? I guess I don't understand.

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Re: Jane Litman article

Author: scott
Date: 11-06-03 21:36

Turning swoerds into plowshares was an intersteing article.

<<But, the standard wisdom tells us, there is a terrible price to pay for all this success--we Jews are assimilating into American culture and losing our precious Jewish identity. People who hold this view often point to the high rate of intermarriage as its ultimate proof. According to this view, oppression and discrimination are the primary reasons for the longevity and vitality of the Jewish people throughout history. Tolerance within an open society leads to the ultimate demise of the Jewish people.I beg to differ.>>

How can you not see this? I'm not making value-Judgments, just stating facts. The fact is is that as Jews became accepted into the gentile society around them, which they were previously excluded from, religion no longer became the important life-guiding element that it was prior to the begining of acceptance of Jews by their gentile counterparts. For many Christians, as Jews, religion is not all that important in life. FOr a christian, its not an issue, all a christian has to do is beleive in Jesus and they are 'saved'- thats it. Thats why secualrism has flourished so well in America. Christians have not the rituals, laws and customs that Jews do. When religion, and specifically Judaism becomes less important for the Jew, intermarriage becomes more common, as people either ignore or dont care about the religious consequneces oif intermarriage. Secular america facilitates this all too well. Rarely, if ever, would such a thing as intermarriage have happened 400 years ago. Why? Because Judaism was important to jews back then, on the whole, and christianity was important to Christians.

<<What does American pop culture offer that is more attractive than Judaism? Shopping? Reality television shows? Fast food? No. Jews don't avoid their faith because American secular culture offers something more.>>

Wait a minute.... this makes no sense. Look around you. How many Jews celebrate shabbat friday nights, or even simply light candles. How many go to synagogue Shabbat morning? How many Jews study torah at least once a week? Shall I continue?..... Many Jews dont evern belive God wrote the Torah, is it then a wonder why so many Jews are so non-observant of Judaism, and why so many Jews intermarry?

I think if you ask any Jew,- specifically younger Jews 40 and under, the secular thinks you mention above, including going out on friday nights, most Jews will say that indeed, they would rather be doing those things than observing religious customs.

<< If anything, the cause for assimilation in America is our very heritage of oppression and the heavy psychological burden that has put upon our people. It is our troubled history as Jews that most causes us to turn away from the beauty that is Judaism. Oppression and suffering are not the friends of Judaism.>>

In part this i believe is correct. For example, Look at the holocaust andthe theological implications of it. How many of the remainig Jews in the world lost their faith in God because of this?

I think it is this, in addition to secular american socciety, that have contributed to the decline of Jews, and the decline of the religiosity of Jews on this country.

<<From my view, Jewish life in America isn't a double-edged sword of achievement on the one side but assimilation on the other, but rather a double blessing. Why?
There is one piece of the American Jewish experience that seems to be a balm for the psychological wound that is the legacy of hatred against the Jewish people. That balm is the love and caring of non-Jews. Many of these non-Jews not only fall in love with individual Jews, but also with Judaism. More than 300,000 Jews in America chose our faith.>>

I know this to be true, from first hand experience. My wife converted to Judaism. I recall being initially reluctant to date her, to have a romantic relationship. For me, unquestionably, I was a Jew. Being a Jew meant then and still means today, marying someone who is a Jew, weather by birth or by choice. SHe thought it over long and hard befroe she took the steps toprds becomuing a Jew, and i wouldnt have it any other way, even if it meant being single the rest of my life, I am Jew first, and being a Jew, to me, means marrying a Jew, or not getting married at all.

Had I allowed myself to become to secualrized, too assimilated, I would not have been so adamant, which would have resulted, probably, in us being an 'interfaith' family.

<<However, I want to go a bit further. I see many families in which a non-Jewish partner gives support and help toward Judaism. I can't count the number of non-Jewish dads who shlep the kids to religious school, or Christian moms who cook Passover dinner. Many of these non-Jews have a much more positive attitude toward religion in general than their Jewish partners. Ironically, they often provide the motive for the family engagement in Judaism!>>

Actually, i'm not sure how to react to this. I guess I should expect it. Obviosly ones Judaism is not central to his/her life of he/she mariries a Gentile. I'm sure there are non-jews in interfaith families who help out their family in many ways, including the ones described above. You dont have to be Jewish to be a descent person, and do good things, nor to take your child to religious school, etc. However, if two religions are taught in the home, or even if two arent taught, and Judaism is only taught, but one parent has a very different faith, and doesnt pariticipate, I cannot see how THAT helps Judaism. Religion, within the context of a family, should be just that... a family thing. It cannot be when one parent has drastically different beliefs. And what of 'assigning new meaning'? to religios obesrvances?

A freiind of mine's parents are intermarried, the mother is not Jewish. They ahve turned the passove seder into a feast honoring Jesus. (Jesus' last supper was a seder, many believe) While this may be extreme, its an example of what can happen. It robs children of knowing the real meaning of the observance. SUch actins on large or small scales, do this, and dont help Judaism

<<Congregation Beth El warmly welcomes and cherishes both our interfaith families and our Jewish by choice (as well as our Jews by birth). We are extremely pleased at the success of our first annual seder for interfaith families, and look forward to a year of exciting outreach programming. Sometimes a sword is without edges at all. Then it is a plowshare.
>>

Only time will tell if your acceptance of interfaith couples will be good or harmfull to the Jewish peoiple. There are people who say that were it not for reform Judaism, judaism would hve practically been wiped out, and be a dead religion today, as reform Judaism allowed Jews to be secular, and Jewish at the same time. With interfaith couples, we face a similar thing that Jews fasced 160 years ago. Will our faith survive? thats the ultimate question? Its a serious one too. We were nearly physically wiped out 60 years ago. I hope for our people that the acceptance of interfaith Jewish families will not be the spiritual version of that awful tragedy 60 years ago. With intermarriage rate being so high, it hads sure better not be.

also, exactly what is different about an "interfaith" seder yuo aluded to earlier, from a regualr seder? I would just like to know.
Thanks.

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Re:

Author: Martha
Date: 11-11-03 08:56

Ok, Scott, a fre remarks on your posting

'For many Christians, as Jews, religion is not all that important in life. For a christian, its not an issue, all a christian has to do is beleive in Jesus and they are 'saved'- thats it. Thats why secualrism has flourished so well in America."

You clearly do not have a very good understanding if what christianity is. Oversimpliflying a religion is never a good strategy to deny its importance. Christianity is much more than believing in Jesus, just as Judaism is more than observing the Shabbat. By definition, if people call themselves "christians", it is implied that they believe in Jesus, or at least, that they were brought up to believe so. However, the concept of salvations in christianity is much more complicated than believing that Jesus was the Messiah or the son of God. Salvation is about putting your believes into pratice, being compassionate, help others, and live your life in accordance to the mandates of the Bible, which, btw, includes the 10 commandments. (which, you might be suprised, is one of the first things that christian children learn in Sunday school). Secularism is not an exclusively christian phenomena. Most christians, especially traiditonal protestantism, feel as threatened with secularism as traditional judaism does.

"We were nearly physically wiped out 60 years ago. I hope for our people that the acceptance of interfaith Jewish families will not be the spiritual version of that awful tragedy 60 years ago. With intermarriage rate being so high, it hads sure better not be."

Ok, take it and respect your opinion against interfaith marriages. But seriously, considering interfaith couples and families to be a holocaust equivalent in a spiritual level is absolutely disrespectful of jewish men and women who struggle everyday to make the most out of what is a difficult and challenging situation when they fall in love with a non-jewish partner. You might be oblivious to the fact that the ancestor's of many jewsih men and woman who are currently involved in interfaith relationships are holocaust survivors or victims (including my jewish boyfriend's familiy), and to imply that these jewish people are subjecting their faith and tradition to the same risks and tragedy than the holocaust did is outrageous.

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Re: martha

Author: scott
Date: 01-04-04 15:53

<<Ok, take it and respect your opinion against interfaith marriages. But seriously, considering interfaith couples and families to be a holocaust equivalent in a spiritual level is absolutely disrespectful of jewish men and women who struggle everyday to make the most out of what is a difficult and challenging situation when they fall in love with a non-jewish partner. You might be oblivious to the fact that the ancestor's of many jewsih men and woman who are currently involved in interfaith relationships are holocaust survivors or victims (including my jewish boyfriend's familiy), and to imply that these jewish people are subjecting their faith and tradition to the same risks and tragedy than the holocaust did is outrageous.>>

It is disrespectful of me to hold this opinion??!!!
What about the people who go to the extra effort NOT to marry outside the religion? They too have a dilema with which they struggle.

As for men and women who are involved in interfaith marriages who have ancestors that perrished in or even survived the holocaust, as far as I am concerned they do a disservcice to the memory of their ancestors. Just what do you think intermarriage does to the Jewish people? For what reason did they suffer? Only to have their children, and grandchildren neglect their religion and people by marying someone of another faith? For the longest time jews stood against this, beleiving it would only hurt us. Ironically, after nearly 1/3 of world Jewsry was wiped out, Jews increasinningly began inetrmarrying.

Spiritually speaking, do you really think it helps the Jewish people, or enhnaces our understanding of Judaism? Idont.

****Intermarriage in no way benefits the Jews.****

Currently about 50% of Jews intermarry. Of those, most dont raise their children as Jews. What other single event in Jewish history has claimed more Jewish souls than intermarriage ? -The holocaust.
Now, if such a high rate of intermarriage isnt desructive to the Jewish people, I dont know what is. If there are 14 million Jews in the world, and 1/2 of them intermarry, and lets say only half of them raise their vchildren as Jews, thats some 2-3 million Jews, lost to Judaism. Do you know of any single phenomenon beside the holocaust that has harmed the Jews in such large numbers? I sure dont. But feel free to edcuate me, if there is such an event.
Of course intermaariage isnt the same thing as burning bodies in oven or gassing people.
But the effect of intermamriasge is nbearly as bad. ****Intermarriage is the Jewiosh people destroyingh themselves,****, physically and spiritually.

If believe that if you make your bed, you must lie in it. We all choose who we fall in love with. Jews who intermarry have no one to blame but themselves for any 'challenging situations' that they face when they allow themselves to fall in love with someone not Jewish, and I dont feel sorry for them either, they may habe made a decision they thought wass roight for themselves, but it is a decidion that is not right foir the Jewish people, period.

I do not believe we should change the rules to accomodate people who make decisions to fall in love and raise a family with people who arent Jewish, just so they can feel good about the decision they hgave made. It waters down our faith and beliefs, and makes it appear that we dont really value our faith when we intermarry at such a high rate.

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Re:

Author: Sharon
Date: 01-07-04 09:19

I am the daughter of two Jewish parents. My father was a lay leader in the small temple in a town with very few Jews. My mother never was very religious,though. We even got presents on Christmas morning when I was very young.(We never decorated, though). I remember when they told us we were not getting Christmas presents anymore,I was so upset! We still celebrated Chanukkah, though.
Anyway, my brother and sister both married Catholics, and are now raising thier children Catholic. I moved to South Florida with my parents and was single for a year after breaking up with a boyfriend. I even joined a dating club. I am now married to a non-religious,non-practicing Catholic, raising my children Jewish. It is not easy! He is turned off by the whole thing,and does not participate in any thing, and his mother is not happy with the fact that I am raising them Jewish,ect.ect.
Not only that, but also my kids have very few real Jewish relatives. Just my Mom and Dad, and my Aunts and Uncle. Thier cousins,ect. are all Christian.

I am upset at my mother for not steering me toward a Jewish singles service when I was living with them. She never even mentioned that it would be nice for me to date someone Jewish. If I was to do it over again I would date strictly Jewish men, but at the time I did not realize the problems I would encounter in the future.
For me, religion did not become important until there were kids involved.
I guess I am lucky in a way, because my husband does not like any religion, and does not want to take them to church,
but he is not supportive, either.
That is my story, and I will not make the same mistake with my kids that my mother made with me and my brother and sister.

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Re: martha

Author: Martha
Date: 01-08-04 12:44

'It is disrespectful of me to hold this opinion??!!!'

Yes it is, specially for those who intermarry and are keeping a jewish family. Even for those who decide to keep another faith, comparing intermarriage to the hatred, anguish, murder and torture that occurred in the Holocaust is absolutely wrong for one simple reason: you say that intermarriage has claimed as much jewish 'souls' as the holocaust, but the holocaust didn't claim jewish souls. Those souls remained very jewish. The holocaust claimed jewish LIVES. People who intermarry are not murderers, period. Such a comparison is also disrespectful to those who suffered horrible deaths in the holocaust. I can agree with you that intermarriage does not do any good for the jewish people. I can also agree with you that intermarriage is a factor, among others, for the decline of the jewish people. But your comparison to the holocaust misses the main difference, the holocaust happened out of pure hate of the non-jews to the jews, intermarriage happens because someone who is no not jewish loves a jew. A love you may not agree with, that you may think is wrong, something that you may personally hate, but ultimately different from the holocaust.

"What about the people who go to the extra effort NOT to marry outside the religion? They too have a dilema with which they struggle

If they have a dilema, is because they have brought it upon themselves as well. I know many jews who deal with it very simply: not dating people who are not jewish. No particular effort is needed for this. When a non-jew ask you out, you just say no. If a jewish person who is not willing to be in a serious relationship with a non-jew starts dating a non-jew and the relationship becomes serious, if the jewish person finds him or herself in a dilema, is their own doing.

"I do not believe we should change the rules to accomodate people who make decisions to fall in love and raise a family with people who arent Jewish, just so they can feel good about the decision they hgave made."

I don't think the reason for the changes is to accomodate the adults, but to give the children of such marriages the opportunity to have and enjoy their jewish heritage, religion and culture, even when only one parent is jewish. After all, people with only one jewish parent where considered jewish enough to die in the holocaust, so why are they not jewish enough to have a jewish life?

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How about a reality check here?

Author: Linda
Date: 04-02-04 13:27

Let's see. Various statistics show that anywhere from 1/2 to 2/3s of marriages fail. Succeeding at marriage for 30, 40, 50 years is a big challenge on its own. So looking for the best match - for values, goals, commitment - seems to me to be the first priority. The obligation, desire or drive to keep the Jewish people going is a personal one - not a joint one. Each individual in a marriage - in the entire family, for that matter - must decide what he or she wants to do to perpetuate the Jewish people. For me that meant choosing a husband who is the best fit I could ever find, who also was comfortable with my insistence that our children will be raised as Jews. Thus our marriage has, in this risky time, as strong a foundation as it can because of the quality of our match. This in turn will help us to carry out our goals as a family - one of which is to raise Jewish children. But make no mistake about it - if it is especially important to me that our children be Jewish, it is my responsibility to make it happen and to prevent roadblocks.

One of the saddest dating experiences I ever had was with a Jewish man who insisted that we go to Conservative services, held in Hebrew at a university temple, rather than to Reform services with the friends I had shared the High Holidays with forever - and when the services were over and we went home he turned on the TV and watched a movie. I was appalled. First, his practice of Judaism was totally insincere. Second, the services and the occasion didn't move him in the least to reflection, conversation, etc. Third, I'd missed out on the spiritual experience I'd always had with my friends - always at reform services. The point? Being Jewish is no guarantee of anything. Ergo, marrying a Jewish spouse is no guarantee of anything either.

The way I see it, we are now bringing two Jewish children into the world who might otherwise have been non-Jews (had my husband married within his faith.) The bright side of intermarriage.

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Re: linda

Author: Scott
Date: 04-18-04 20:42

<<
The obligation, desire or drive to keep the Jewish people going is a personal one - not a joint one. Each individual in a marriage - in the entire family, for that matter - must decide what he or she wants to do to perpetuate the Jewish people.>>

Linda, I'm not so sure i agree with this. Yes, individaul choices are important.Sometimnes though there are somethings that cannot bve left up to indiviauls, and these things must be decided in groups. Perpetuating the Jewsih people means being active JEWISHLY, doing Jewish things-going to syangogue, relgiosu schools, volunteerring/contributing to Jewoih orgnaizatiions, supoortng Israel, etc. It also means having Jewish children. To be indifferent to these things, or do opposite these things, does not serve to perperuate the Jewish people.

<<One of the saddest dating experiences I ever had was with a Jewish man who insisted that we go to Conservative services, held in Hebrew at a university temple, rather than to Reform services with the friends I had shared the High Holidays with forever - and when the services were over and we went home he turned on the TV and watched a movie. I was appalled. First, his practice of Judaism was totally insincere. Second, the services and the occasion didn't move him in the least to reflection, conversation, etc. Third, I'd missed out on the spiritual experience I'd always had with my friends - always at reform services. The point? Being Jewish is no guarantee of anything. Ergo, marrying a Jewish spouse is no guarantee of anything either.>>

If his practice of judaism was insincere you beleivem because he went hiome and watched television on shabbat, i think you may be misjudging him, of cosurse i dont know him, so I cant be certain. I am conservative, and I do go to synagogoue most every shabbat, and I find prayer in herbrew much more statisfying then prayer in english, so much so i wont even say the prayers in englidsh most of the time, as I bveleiuvce they should be done in herbrew, for both spiritual and other reasons.
I will thouygh, go home afterwards and watch tv, use elcecticity, i will not howver, engage in work.

You are right about one thing, being Jewish is no guarantee of anything. Noit being orthodox, conservatiove or reform is a guartantee of anything. Thats why it is so important that we do emphasize jewish choices over non jewisdh choices in our lives, all the time.

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