Gay Interfaith Relationships - Page 1

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Welcome to our discussions!

Author: InterfaithFamily.com Editors
Date: 03-27-02 13:42

We're pleased to tell you that we've changed our online discussions--and we invite you to join them! When you submit a message, it will be reviewed by our moderators before it is posted. While we will accept messages that are realistic about the challenges posed by interfaith relationships, we won't allow people to vent their opposition to intermarriage, as has happened in the past. Our goal is to make our discussions a welcoming and safe place for people dealing with interfaith relationships to turn for helpful information and support. So please--join our discussions!

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Re: gay interfaith commitment ceremony

Author: Joe Kassner
Date: 03-26-03 14:04

My lover and I are having a commitment ceremony in New York City next March (2004) and are looking for a Rabbi to co-officiate. I'm looking for suggestions of Rabbis who would be willing to perform a ceremony for a gay interfaith couple (in a church!)
Thanks!
Joe

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re: lavine's gay marriage article

Author: benjy
Date: 06-13-03 08:32

I enjoyed this article very much.

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gay interfaith relationships

Author: Avi
Date: 06-20-03 20:11

Hello,
I wanted to respond to your question about the commonalities between the coming out process and disclosing the fact that one is in an interfaith relationship.
I found that the coming out process was much easier. I am in a gay interfaith relationship. I am Jewish, raised traditional Conservative, and my partner is African American, raised in the Church of God in Christ/Pentacostal faith. While my partner no longer believes in traditional Christianity, he still considers himself part of the "black church". I don't know what I consider myself. I feel very burned by Judaism. I was raised Conservadox, basically, and most of my family is quite religious. When I came out to the religious part of my family (my grandparents and two aunts and uncles/cousins), I was already in this interfaith relationship. As my grandfather, a man of 88 years (and traditional family values) said, "Avi did not have a choice to be gay, but he had a choice to be with someone not Jewish." My grandparents did not invite my partner over to their house for quite some time, until my mother put her foot down and told her parents that if my partner wasn't invited to every family function and holiday, then she and my sister/brother-in-law wouldn't come either. That ultimatum resulted positively. My partner is now invited to everything.
My aunt and uncle who live in the West Bank are Orthodox (shock shock) and they just found out. They said that they "still love me and wouldn't reject me". But, I doubt my partner will be invited to anything they host.
It's funny because my mom and I joke around that what's worse to the religious side of the family isn't that I'm gay, but that I'm with a Christian man.
My partner and I will eventually want a commitment ceremony and the chance to adopt children.
As to how Jewish our house will be depends on if and when I'll reconcile with the faith. Judaism was never about liberal values and social justice in my house. It was about order, ritual, traditional values and Zionism. The beauty of the religion was lost somewhere in all the ritual, custom and rigidity. I'd like to regain it, but far to go.
I hope this letter was helpful to your discussion. Again, my response is that coming out of the closet was much easier than disclosing the fact that I am in an interfaith relationship.

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Re: gay interfaith commitment ceremony

Author: Lev Baesh
Date: 06-22-03 19:22

Joe, I co-officiate commitment ceremonies. I am a reform rabbi in NH and travel all around the world...NY isn't that far. If you still have not found someone, send me an email. ps, i'm the moppy one in the picture with my partner at the top of this issue. i've since cleaned up a bit., Rabbi Lev Baesh

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Re: Gay Interfaith Relationships

Author: Marisa McDowell
Date: 06-30-03 17:40

My girlfriend and I are very much alike in many ways. We hit it off because in a bar of all places we started talking about philosophy and religion and the universe right off. I feel it is a match.
However, she was raised Catholic, as was i and i converted, actually i am in the process of converting to Judaism.She is turned off by all organized religion. I think that she feels that i am selling myself short or brainwashing myself by choosing any religion. How do I deal with this. It is not a fight between us it is just such a huge difference.
I feel that I am tied to the Jewish people and Judaism in a way that rarely even makes sense to me. How do i convey it to her?
I love her and I will never give up on us. But, this is a very difficult situation.
I found out recently that my parents and grandparents on my mother's side are in fact German Jews. My family is full of really scared people who didn't want to make waves. When one of them fell for a Catholic, they all started lying about their heritage. My family, since the late 1930's has been lying ever since. This is one of the reasos this is so important to me. I want my daughter and I to make up for the loss of Jewish loves that my family threw away. I want to help her understand this.
What do you think.
I don't know if we will ever want to marry. I love her and I would be a liar if I don't think about it. We are moving to Canada soon and we will be able to have a wedding that is valid by my faith and the law of that country. however, I do not expect her to convert. I just want to figure out a way to bridge this gap a little.

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Re: Interfaith (Eric Pliner)

Author: Todd Pliner
Date: 07-01-03 17:49

Hello,
My name is Todd Pliner and I am the brother that Eric was speaking of in the article. I wanted to add one comment to what he stated about my faith. My main argument is that religion is NOT genetic. Religion is based on an individuals beliefs. I was born and raised Jewish and I am not ashamed of that, and everyone I know is well aware of it. However, as I have grown, emotionally and spiritually, I have studied other religions such as Buddhism and the Hindu religion. I've even read the "Sri Isropanisad" more than once. I just don't see how people can say they believe in something if they don't know all of their options. Children today are the religion their parents tell them that they belong to. What does that have to do with an individuals' belief structure. These children are just practicing faith for the sake of their parents and their ancestors. Obviously the average child may not be capable of seeking out other religions or belief structures, but once they are capable, it should not be looked down upon. Many of the religions of 2003 are very ethnocentric, however, if a person studies them all and develops their own belief structures, whos to say that all religions aren't right. It just depends on how the individual percieves what they are reading or hearing. For me, religion is based on moral and ethical beliefs that affect everyone on a daily basis. I don't feel the need to go to synagogue to chant another language that I don't understand is a religious practice. It doesn't move me spiritually. When I leave synagogue I don't feel good or bad. I feel the same. I feel better when I hold the door open for an elderly person or give some assistance to a random person on the street. I feel like I've made a difference in someones' life when I tell them a joke that changes their mood, and their day. That kind of stuff moves me spiritually and emotionally.

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Re: Gay Interfaith Relationships

Author: Nancy
Date: 07-01-03 17:55

Dear Marissa,
I work with an interfaith organization that runs a hotline and have answered thousands of calls from people who have trouble with either family or friend being in the "wrong" religion. My best suggestion to you is to log onto amazon.com and look under 'interfaith marriages", there are probably twenty books out there - especially about Jewish and Christian marriages. You should find one that resonates - either because it was written by people who have gone through it themselves - and mostly it has to become a compromise from the work I've done - both of you have to respect the other's choice, and seek enrichment from it - you are enriched by learning to understand why another would reject religion - she is enriched by understanding your choice. Even if you completely disagree. (I'm very religious, so is my husband - sorry, I've been married 20 years so I'm stuck with that old terminology - but my sister is atheist and we've had all night discussions). I also have a book out (called The "CULT" Around the Corner) which, while I don't think its the right book for your situation, I think you might like this line from it " The richness of diversity is a wealth we all share - revel in it". I think you'll find you can and you will factually be a "better" person - if only a bigger person for respecting another and caring enough to work through the disagreements. That's a long two cents but thought you'd like to know this is a very common situation and you should find some good advice in some of the many books out there.

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Homosexual interfaith commitments

Author: sara
Date: 07-09-03 12:52

I would think that most reform rabbis will happilly officiate at some sort of commitment ceremony, so long as it is clear that such a ceremony is not a marriage under the laws of Judaism. The resona intermarriage is forbidden is that it separates children of the union from the greater Jewsih community. Since a gay commitment does not entail the raising of children, it shouldn't really be a problem. By Jewish law, it is not, in any sense a marrigae, it's more a long-term freindship relationship with sex. (Remember that by Jewish law, a marriage between people known to be infertile is not a marriage either. No kids=no marriage)

Try approaching a reform rabbi in this light, explaining why you feel homosexual interfaith commitment does not break the laws of Judaism, and does not endanger the people Isreal, and I suspect there should be little problem.

sara

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Re: Homosexual interfaith commitments

Author: Cindy
Date: 07-13-03 19:57

This is in response to Sara's statement that gay relationships do not involve children and are therefore not a marriage. Many gay and lesbian relationships do involve children. . . therefore your premise that a rabbi could marry a gay couple because there are no children and therefore it is not a marriage according to Jewish law is incorrect. My partner and I are both the legal parents of our daughter. We are also friends and aquaintances of many other couples in similar family constructs. Although we are not legally married, we are "married" in every other way! Everything from the raising of our daughter to the paying of the bills, negotiating who is cooking dinner and who is doing the yard work. . . what is the best choice for a kindergarten . . . all of the mundane as well as the marvelous things that constitute a marriage.

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Re: Homosexual interfaith commitments

Author: Steven
Date: 08-08-03 11:49

A million thanks to Cindy for her post. And to Sara may I just say, "YIKES"! Perhaps you didn't mean to use such a broad paintbrush to completely wipe out all of us who are raising children. Or perhaps your view of gay and lesbian couples is from somewhere around the 1970's.

My partner and I are in the process of adopting a child that we will raise Jewish. We are only 1 of more than a dozen couples in our circle of friends who are opting to become parents in a world that thinks the only thing we are interested in is the bathhouses and bars of years gone by.

We had a commitment ceremony that was every bit a REAL wedding. I know that Sara prefaces her comments with, "In the eyes of..." but our eyes and God's eyes are the only ones that count.

Our ceremony was amazing. The best piece of advice we got in the planning stage was that since our ceremony "didn't really count" (meaning in the eyes of the law and the church) we were free to do anything we wanted to do. That meant that we could have kiddush AND communion, we could have a chuppah, we could do away with priests and rabbis and have our friends participate in the ceremony instead. We had a relative chant the Hebrew pieces and lead the kiddush and we had 2 ministers present communion to those who wanted to partake. We even had a "skit" in the middle of the ceremony. How free is that?!?!?

The bottom line is that our ceremony was ABOUT US. At the conclusion of the service we welcomed everyone into our new family. All 160 of them became our sisters, brothers, cousins, aunts, uncles, parents, and grandparents. We can't wait until our child is born so that he or she will know the family that we are so blessed to be a part of. The one that we have built together.

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Re: Gay Interfaith Relationships

Author: Steven
Date: 08-08-03 11:57

Hi Marisa my name is Steven and I just read your posting I've been away from the discussion area for a few months and I realize that your posting was in June, but I'm wondering if you got any good insight into your dilemma. I'm also wondering if you've been able to resolve the issue or if it is ongoing.

My partner and I are interfaith and have been together for nearly 4 years. I think that I can give you some good insight into the issue if you still need it.

Let me know and I'll be happy to fill you in on our details.

Steven Tesney
Houston, Texas
http://www.grantandsteven.com

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Re: What else...

Author: Angela
Date: 11-06-03 09:43

I have spent the morning reading through all of the emails posted at this site and thought I would participate in hopes to gain some insight from all of you.

I am a first generation italian gay woman. While I profess to being Roman Catholic, I do not actively practice Catholisism in the traditional sense. I am however very spritual and attend services on the holidays to renew my own sense of self. I love the holidays - Christmas in particular - because I love winter, the spirit of giving, love the snow, and enjoy the smell of an evergreen tree shining with white lights.

Two years ago I met my lover. She is a practicing Reform Jew and a Zionist who is very active in her religion and her synagogue. Being Jewish for her is a lifestyle which I have enjoyed learning about and experiencing with her. Live and let live is my motto.

Unfortunately, for her, the decision to even date me was a difficult one. She had never dated a "non Jew" and never thought she would. The thing that won us both over was the fact that we were perfect for one another in many other wonderful ways. We agreed to pursue our relationship with a couple of compromises... One of the conditions we agreed upon early was that when we had children they would be raised in the Jewish faith. I still agree and support this but I am beginning to think that I will never be allowed to be myself in my own home. In agreeing to this I am finding that her interpretation means any tradition or icon other than Jewish ones would be confusing to the children and therefore "will" not be a part of a Jewish home.

I want to continue to be supportive and understanding but I don't want my identity to be kept in a closet - not in my own home and not with my children.

Any feedback would be welcome.

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Re: Angela

Author: BobP
Date: 11-08-03 16:56

Angela

The fact that you are gay is really irrelavant to the problem you are facing. Your lover wants an exclusively Jewish home. If you've read through other discussion folders here, you know you are facing what a number of others have - a decision on the future of your life. You can say "we're perfect for each other EXCEPT...". But the except is really important. So you need to decide if you can live with what she wants (or doesn't want). Please don't think that it's something you can "work out later", or figure she'll "change her mind" in the futre. While it's not impossible, that has led to a lot of heartaches when it doesn't happen. It's far better to know up front.

Good Luck

Bob

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jewish-christian love

Author: rebecca
Date: 12-06-03 23:09

I am in a similar situation as Angela, but on the other side of the fence, as it were. I am Jewish, and I feel that it is the very core of my ethnic identity. Currently, I am in a relationship with a woman who is Christian (culturally; she doesn't "believe" in it religiously, really). We have been together for 3 years. Up to this point, she has celebrated many of the Jewish holidays with me, and I have spent Christmas with her and her family. Our differences are hardly religious, spiritual, or ideological. They are, I think, entirely cultural. (We are also from different socio-economic backgrounds.)

We are starting to talk about raising children together, etc. and the idea of raising mixed-fath children is truthfully very scary to me. I can't imagine not having children that feel Jewish in the way that I feel Jewish (irregardless of what they believe spiritually) -- I'm talking about culture, heritage, and ethnic identity. The idea of going to church or celebrating Christian holidays together feels, well, awful to me, like I would be losing myself, assimilating, cutting off my heritage... At the same time, I want to respect my partner's culture, and I certainly don't want her to have to erase any part of herself on my behalf. But even the idea of hanging Christmas lights makes me tense. Growing up Jewish, I think, I came to develop a really visceral negative response to Christian icons. It's so pervasive in our culture, and I can't imagine participating in that - having my family participate in that. But my partner wants me to participate and rejoice in her culture as she tries to do in mine; so, I am left feeling at a real loss here. She thinks I'm stubborn and selfish and that I should want to celebrate with her as she does with me. But it's different somehow. I feel that partaking in Christian rituals is in direct conflict with my Jewish identity.

Any thoughts?

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Re: Commitment Ceremony

Author: Mara
Date: 01-02-04 16:50

I suppose I am thankful that the subject about which I am writing is not as fraught with conflict as many of the others here: I think we are all courageous to be finding and accepting love that crosses so many cultural boundaries. My question is this: my female partner and I are going to be having a commitment ceremony in NY - she is Catholic and I am Jewish, but we would both like the ceremony to be officiated by a Rabbi - ideally a female, reform or reconstructionist rabbi, but more important than gender or sect is that the person be delighted to officiate a same-sex, interfaith commitment ceremony, and be thought-provoking and spiritual. Does anyone out there have any suggestions of where we might look to find such a rare person?

Thanks to you all, and to this site for simply being here.

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Re: jewish-christian love

Author: Erica
Date: 06-10-04 18:01

I found your message on the internet while searching for Jewish-Christian love relationships. I too am in a similar situation. I am Christian and my boyfriend is Jewish (He says, he is culturally Jewish meaning he doesn't attend temple). When we began dating, we both acknowledged our differences religiously and culturally, however it didn't pose as a problem. We have talked about marriage and children and had come to the conclusion that we'd make comprimises, but I really dont think he is willing to comprimise anything. I have offered to learn about his religion if he would about mine and maybe in the process, we'd come to an agreement about what we believe. If what I have is love, I dont want to lose it because of something I can't control. Obviously, I could convert to Judism for him, but according to my religous background, I would have to denounce Jesus therefore I wouldn't be allowed into the kingdom of Heaven.

Just recently, his parents who are not practicing Jews have gotten on his case about me not being Jewish and the importance of keeping the Jewish heritage alive. This has never been a problem for him until now. Before, he said his parents would deal with it and mine would too. Hypothetically, if I did convert, would his parents/family accept me even though I am not of Jewish decent? With what I have told you, could you give me some advice? I know we are of different cultures, but from one person in love to another I would really appreciate your honesty. Can a relationship like mine survive and if so, what do you recommend I do?

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Re: Erica's message

Author: BobP
Date: 06-13-04 23:12

Erica

You asked the question <<Hypothetically, if I did convert, would his parents/family accept me even though I am not of Jewish decent?>>

Once a person converts, they are considered to be JEWISH, and no one is supposed to mention that they were once something else. That said, some people are ignorant. Should you wish to get an answer to that question, ask his parents. From what you described, I have a feeling they would still not be very accepting of you, even if you did convert.

But more importantly, conversion is something you should not be thinking about at this time. Most rabbis consider conversion for marriage to be wrong. Conversion should be done because one wants to be Jewish, not to marry his/her sweetheart. Ask youself if we broke up, would I still want to be Jewish. If you cannot answer "YES", you should not convert.

And the fact that you said <<...I would have to denounce Jesus therefore I wouldn't be allowed into the kingdom of Heaven>> tells me that you are a committed Christian. That's fine. But how do you feel about your husband not being one? Do you beliefs say only Christians go to heaven? If so, Could you have Jewish children (if that's how you raised them)? Lots of difficult questions in an interfaith relationship. Better to face them at this stage then after the wedding and a child is on his/her way.

Good Luck

Bob

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trying to find author - Irit Koren

Author: David Bryfman
Date: 09-02-04 19:03

Does anyone have an email address for the author of this book - Irit Koren? Please let me know - bryfman@nyu.edu

Thanks

David

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