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Grandparenting Interfaith Family Children - Page 1
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Page 1
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Author: InterfaithFamily.com Editor (---.home.net)
Date: 07-28-00 11:03
What do you think about Paula Hellman's story about grandparenting a Christian grandchild? |
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| Christian Grandchildren |
Author: Jim Barnett (---.sybercom.net)
Date: 07-31-00 23:11
An interesting dilemma, and one we may all confront. It is interesting that the article mentions the numbers of grandparents who begin to participate in Jewish ritual only after the children have grown, and the grandchildren have come on the scene. The children, now parents themselves, are so distanced from Judaism that they react negatively to seeing candles being lit on Friday night, not having seen such a sight in their own homes before. Under the circumstances, it is hardly surprising that they accuse the grandparents of merely putting on a show for the benefit of the grandchildren. No wonder so many grandchildren are being raised in another faith! If anything in the article ought to provide food for thought, it is that Jewish parents cannot avoid the practice of Judaism and participation in the Jewish religious community all throughout the lives of their children and then expect that Jewishness will magically transmit itself to the next generation. Waiting until the grandchildren are being raised as Christians is a bit late. |
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| Ignore, this is just a test. |
Author: IFF editor (---.ne.mediaone.net)
Date: 12-18-01 10:45
Ignore, this is just a test. |
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| Grandmother |
Author: Stella (---.as27.nwbl0.wi.voyager.net)
Date: 03-15-02 14:00
This is such an incredibly painful problem for me! My own son threw away everything that is sacred to me and took away the meaning of my life! We always thought Danny understood when it comes to marrying someone and having children, how important it is to us that he have a real Jewish marriage. Now he's with this girl, and a minister talks about this "father son and holy ghost" business, it stabs me in my heart! Not for grandchildren who go to church did my parents die! First I saw them and my sister murdered by the nazis and now I see my child murder them all over again!
InterfaithFamily.com Editor wrote:
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What do you think about Paula Hellman's story about grandparenting a Christian grandchild? |
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| grandchildren |
Author: claire (---.ebrnsw01.nj.comcast.net)
Date: 03-15-02 22:27
i find it interesting that interfaith marriages are thought of as a loss. and that if you marry a non-jew, that the world is damned. why would any healthy person subject themselves to such negativity? who would want to raise their children around grandparents that think their grandchildren are lesser people?
no wonder jews that marry 'outside' feel turned off to keeping their faith/culture.
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Author: mpfreed (---.proxy.aol.com)
Date: 03-17-02 06:37
Claire,
It is not a case of marrying a non-Jew that the world is damned. Jews are only small in number (particularly after the ravages of the Holocaust) and the high level of intermarriage taking place is already having dire demographic consequences.
(I have in previous posts supplied statistics on this subject)
It is NOT a question of regarding their grandchildren as lesser people - it's just that, in the main, as all experience shows, they will NOT be Jews. Without Jews there can be no Judaism - never mind the cultural/ethnic aspects (after all you don't have to be Jewish to enjoy bagels, klezmer music or reading a Sholem Aleichem story !). And so, yes, many Jews do regard marrying out as a loss.
Murray Freedman |
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| inflamatory posts |
Author: Susan (---.as9.nwbl0.wi.voyager.net)
Date: 03-17-02 11:51
I want to thank Murray for his response to claire's scurilous, unfounded accusations. Her "you people think [blablabla] and I'm furious with you because of it" kind of statement has no place in any intelligent discussion. It is good to know that the editors will soon be screening out such posts. |
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| claire and murray freed |
Author: Ed Case (---.ne.client2.attbi.com)
Date: 03-17-02 11:52
Murray Freed's posting is a classic example of a negative and counter-productive attitude among too many Jews regarding intermarriage.
When Mr. Freed says that "all experience shows that they [the grandchildren] will not be Jews," he knows that that is an exaggeration and really a false statement. It is accurate to say that most children of intermarried parents are not raised as Jews. However, about 30% are, and that is in a climate that Claire has aptly detected -- where too many people, like Mr. Freed, are ready to give up on those children. We don't know how many more interfaith families would make Jewish choices for themselves and their children if they felt welcomed and included.
Our goal is to work for a change in attitudes, so that more Jews will be more welcoming of interfaith families and more encouraging and supportive of their potential Jewish choices. |
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Author: Susan (---.as14.nwbl0.wi.voyager.net)
Date: 03-17-02 13:45
Mr. Case implies that Murray Freedman is "ready to give up on" the children of intermarriages. Does Mr. Case also mean to argue against Mr. Freedman's main point and to defend claire's accusations? Remember. she accuses Jews who aren't happy with intermarriage of believing that non-Jews are "lesser people." |
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Author: mpfreed (---.proxy.aol.com)
Date: 03-17-02 14:48
Ed Case:
You accuse me of exaggerating and making a false statement when I wrote that "....all experience shows that the grandchildren will not be Jews.." However you omitted , presumably unintentionally (?), that I qualified that statement by "in the main". The facts, of course bear me out. The 1990 National Jewish Survey revealed that only 28% of children of interfaith marriages were being brought up Jewish. The rest are being brought up in another religion (usually Christian) or in no religion at all. The fact is that it appears to matter little whether or not the Jewish community is welcoming to interfaith couples and their children - those couples have mostly made up their minds in what direction they are to go when they marry. Those who choose Judaism, or who are thinking of doing so, will no doubt subscribe to these forums, but the vast majority are lost to the Jewish community. You may wish to call that being negative. I say, with heavy heart, that it is being realistic.
Murray Freedman |
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| murray freedman |
Author: Ed Case (---.ne.client2.attbi.com)
Date: 03-17-02 15:24
I didn't notice that you said "in the main." We don't disagree on the facts -- the current data is that less than 30% of intermarried people raise their children as Jews.
Here is where we totally disagree: when you say "The fact is that it appears to matter little whether or not the Jewish community is welcoming to interfaith couples and their
children - those couples have mostly made up their minds in what direction they are to go when they marry." We disagree because I don't think the Jewish community has ever been welcoming, or , more carefully stated, not enough of the Jewish community has ever been welcoming enough; therefore, I'm not prepared to give up on trying to get the community to be welcoming, as I believe you are.
Rather than going around with a heavy heart, I respectfully suggest that you look at your frequent postings on our discussion boards and ask yourself honestly what you think their impact is on interfaith people who are "on the fence," who are potentially willing to raise their children as Jews but are unsure, and who happen to come to our site. Do you think your postings would encourage them to make Jewish choices, or discourage them? If you'd like to see more of them make more Jewish choices, then is your "realism" productive toward that end?
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Author: mpfreed (---.proxy.aol.com)
Date: 03-17-02 15:59
Ed Case:
The thrust of my frequent postings to these discussion boards is not necesarily to encourage or discourage interfaith couples to make Jewish choices. It is to explain (and it seems that it needs to be explained from the postings of many of the non-Jewish contributors) why many Jews are not exactly enamoured with the whole idea of intermarriage, and why they may not appear to be welcoming to interfaith couples. I state again, that does NOT imply that non-Jews are a lesser breed at all. It is not for nothing that the Talmud states that the righteous of ALL peoples have a share in the world to come. It is not for nothing that Jews do not go out of their way to seek proselytes by proclaiming that Jews alone have possession of the only true faith.
You may have noticed that I am fond of statistics. Very recently the findings of a new survey were published - the American Jewish Identity Survey 2001. Grave inroads have been made into the American Jewish community over the last 11 years of which intermarriage must have been a major contributory factor. For example, there has been a more than 17 per cent reduction in the number of Jews who profess Judaism (of any complexion). It is facts like this that underpins the attitude amongst many Jews (not all of course) to intermarriage.
Murray Freedman |
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| Murray Freedman |
Author: Ed Case (---.ne.client2.attbi.com)
Date: 03-17-02 16:15
You didn't answer my question, which leads me to believe that you really don't care that your postings discourage intermarried people, who are potentially interested in Jewish life, from getting involved.
The AJIS 2001 survey also showed that the Reform Movement, which has been the most welcoming on interfaith families, has seen the biggest increase in synagogue affiliation -- which I belive supports my contention that if the community is more welcoming, more interfaith families will join it. |
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Author: mpfreed (---.proxy.aol.com)
Date: 03-17-02 17:28
Ed Case:
I have no wish to indulge in a slanging match with you about the veracity of published facts .
I have read the 777 page report of the American Jewish Identity Survey and nowhere does it say that Reform has had the biggest increase in affiliation - how could that be when overall there has been a decrease in the number of Jews professing Judaism that I previously mentioned. What it does say in the summary (page 5) is that Reform is the largest in terms of adult adherents: about 1.1 million or 30% of America's Jewish by religion adults or adults of Jewish parentage or upbringing identify (not necessarily as members) with it.
Also, on page 24, however it states that ".. the data also confirm that the majority of the Jews with another religion, or Jews with no religion, are indeed the children of intermarried parents.."
Also on page 43 in Exhibit 14 it reveals that of the three main denominations Reform adherents are least likely to describe themselves as 'religious'.
Murray Freedman |
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| Murray Freedman |
Author: Ed Case (---.ne.client2.attbi.com)
Date: 03-17-02 18:38
You still didn't answer my question. I take it then that you admit that you don't care that your postings discourage intermarried people, who are potentially interested in Jewish life, from getting involved.
The Jewish Telegraphic Agency reported about the AJIS survey that the number of American Jewish households affiliated with a synagogue has increased by 15% to about 1 million, and that the Reform Movement had seen the biggest increase, with 41% percent of affiliated households belonging to the Reform Movement, up from 35% in 1990. |
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Author: mpfreed (---.proxy.aol.com)
Date: 03-17-02 19:20
I am certainly not out to discourage the involvement of intermarrieds in Jewish life.
If they are willing to accommodate themselves to Judaism - preferably by conversion, I would be delighted. But if 'being welcoming' is really a euphemism for dropping religious standards to make Judaism attractive to them then I am agin it.
The JTA summary does appear to differ from the actual AJIS 2001 report. Incidentally, it is only 77 pages long - it isn't THAT verbose !!
Murray Freedman |
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Author: mpfreed (---.proxy.aol.com)
Date: 03-17-02 20:08
Here are my last words on this subject - I have no wish to hog this forum and prove a bore.
Thinking more about that JTA summary, how can 40% of affilated hoseholds belong to Reform when the AJIS2001 report says that only 30% of individual adult Jews belong to Reform ? Unless those households contain a large number of non-Jews.
I do advise all to read that report - it is an important document on the state of American Jewry today. It contrasts with a similar survey in 1990 which used the same methodology. Although the core Jewish population has dropped by only 3% in the intervening years (though it must be said that the report makes no mention of the many tens of thousands of Israeli and Russian Jewish immigrants who must have come to the US over that period) there are ominous trends emerging that I have pointed to previously. As far as I am concerned, the most disturbing is the fact that children of Jews who still profess Judaism have dropped in number by 18%.
Here is the link:-
http://www.gc.cuny.edu/studies/ajis.pdf
Murray Freedman |
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| outreach, welcome, or what? |
Author: Susan (---.as13.nwbl0.wi.voyager.net)
Date: 03-18-02 07:36
I agree with Mr. Case that we should try to help intermarried families move in the direction of Judaism. Unfortunately, he underestimates the effectiveness of this website in advancing that goal. I have intermarried friends who have written it off because of its minimal Jewish content and its extreme anti-Orthodox bias. Mr. Freedman is correct that in our zeal to accomodate non-Jewish spouses we may run the risk of creating something which bears little resemblance to Judaism. |
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| Re: Testing |
Author: Nancy (209.41.235.---)
Date: 03-18-02 11:32
ignore |
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Author: Bryce (---.ivicm.com)
Date: 03-18-02 12:04
Perhaps Susan (msg 21) meant "overestimates" instead of "underestimates". |
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| I stand corrected |
Author: Susan (---.as3.nwbl0.wi.voyager.net)
Date: 03-18-02 15:18
Yes, Bryce, you're absolutely right. Thank you for pointing out my error. (Perhaps that explains how that post made it past the censor's knife!) |
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| The grandmother who posted here (#6) |
Author: Susan (---.as5.nwbl0.wi.voyager.net)
Date: 03-20-02 10:40
Mr. Case:
I notice that "Stella" expressed a severe sense of pain and betrayal that her son intermarried and then "claire" strongly condemned Jew who object to intermarriage. When Murray Freedman disagreed with claire, you argued against him and essentially threw your support behind claire's accusations. Obviously, you don't share Stella's views, but do you have any compassion for her at all? She probably came here hoping for some sort of emotional or social support. Not only did she not find it here, but you seemingly defend those who attack her. Was that your intention? |
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Place of Jewish worship, referring to both the room where it occurs and the building where it occurs. Colloquially referred to as "temple."
The major collection of rabbinic Jewish law.
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