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Is American Jewry Fading or Reviving?

Author: InterfaithFamily.com Editor (---.home.net)
Date: 10-31-00 14:19

What do you think of Robert Leiter's article? Do you think intermarriage means that American Jewry is fading? or reviving? We'd like to know what YOU think!

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intermarriage article

Author: mpfreed (---.jakinternet.co.uk)
Date: 11-07-00 13:38

Given that all the evidence shows that few of the children of intermarried couples are being brought up as Jewish how can it not mean that American Jewry is fading (and for that matter diaspora Jewry where intermarriage seems to be similarly high) ?

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Surveys on Attitudes about Intermarriage

Author: InterfaithFamily.com Editor (---.home.net)
Date: 11-30-00 16:02

What do you think about the American Jewish Committee survey showing increasing acceptance of intermarriage?

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AJC report

Author: Lance (---.dt.navy.mil)
Date: 12-01-00 12:56

I'm delighted by the AJC report. It shows that the majority of Jews have finally rejected the idea that tradition should be rejected if it isn't right. The report states that "it appears that most American Jews are prepared to sacrifice Jewish tradition for family harmony." While this may be part of the reason for this phenomenon I find this to be a rather shallow explanation. I think many people are rejected endogomy because they think it is wrong, not simply for the sake of family harmony.

As to whether this means that American Jewry is "fading" or "reviving", I have no idea. I'm not even sure how to interpret that question. I think it shows that Jewish values are certainly changing. What impact that will have on 'Jewry" overall remains to be seen. I think that part of the problem is that, traditionally, one's attachment to being Jewish has been measured by to what degree one follows the traditional Jewish laws. Many modern people have rejected many of those laws as no longer being applicable or even moral in some cases. So, what you have is a situation where many Jews may still feel attached to their Jewish identity but, tradition essentially excludes those people from Jewish community since they do not measure up to its standards.

What will happen in the future will depend largely on whether Judaism can revitalize itself in a manner that speaks to modern Jewish sensibilities. I'm not sure what shape such revitalization might take. It could come in a variety of forms. Regardless, I expect it will be a rocky road ahead with much angst and pulling of hair and it may ultimately result is a schism of the Jewish people.

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AJC report

Author: mpfreed (---.vip.uk.com)
Date: 12-03-00 19:06

Lance writes:

"What will happen in the future will depend largely on whether Judaism can revitalize itself in a manner that speaks to modern Jewish sensibilities. I'm not sure what shape such revitalization might take. It could come in a variety of forms. Regardless, I expect it will be a rocky road ahead with much angst and pulling of hair and it may ultimately result is a schism of the Jewish people."

The prospect of that schism is increasing is not just theoretical with one group not being able to marry into another because of halachic status problems. This may not matter much (or at all) to Lance and to most on this forum, but the only growth area of American Jewry is the Orthodox. In spite of triumphalist claims Conservative and Reform are not now growing.

The effects of a low birth rate (and, yes, intermarriage - because most children of intermarried couples are not being brought up Jewish in spite of the impression to the contrary we may get from these forums) are such as to only reduce the total Jewish population in the US. In the 1990 US National Jewish Survey the core Jewish population was found to number 5.5 million (20% of whom professed no religion). In spite of some immigration from Russia and Israel over the intervening decade I predict that that total will be less when the findings of a similar survey being taken this year are published. This would go to explain the attitude of many Jews to intermarriage.

BTW, Lance, do you agree with half of American Jews that being opposed to intermarriage is 'racist' ?? If so would you say the same about Catholics who, in the main, would prefer to marry other Catholics, or a, say, a Methodist parent who would not want his child to marry a Moslem ??

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Looking out for Number One

Author: Susan (---.milwaukee.k12.wi.us)
Date: 12-05-00 22:50

It seems to me sometimes that traditional Jewish values are not really compatible with that beloved American mentality of "Rugged Individualism." Most of us put our own personal pleasures ahead of the needs of the Jewish community. As my former fiance's father used to say, "Judaism is what my dad left Russia to get away from!"

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Author: becky (---.dsl.gtei.net)
Date: 12-10-00 18:12

Some thoughts: I know you asked Lance, but I don't think Judaism falls in the same category as Catholics or other protestants. I do not think that any of these religions base "what you are" on the bloodline of a mother or father. It is something you are baptised in or confirmed in - a person may be closely guided in the faith, but ultimately - even with immense family and social pressure, the final decision of religious identity is based on individual choice.. I can't speak for the Muslim faith, but according to my Muslim friends, intermarriage is considered to be very favorable. The faith requires that children will be raised in the Muslim tradition, even if the mother/father does not convert. The whole "tribal" aspect of Judaism is the problem here, I think. I don't even know if you can call this tradition?

As I prepare to provide a Jewish home and background for my children who are not yet born, I cringe when I think of approaching rabbis about the matter. I've planned to convert my children as infants, if it is possible, so that they may marry someone of a more conservative background, if they choose. My decision to do this is to just not have hassle, period. My children will have more of a Jewish upbringing than my husband ever had, and it makes me very angry that their Jewish identity will be questioned because of my bloodline. This, to me, is racist. Because of my Christian background I separate religion from ancestry - I happen to be an American Protestant descended from German Catholics - and in the American Way, we couldn't care less who was what in Europe. I also realize that this is just one frustrating thing about the religion that I really don't understand.

However, I do hope that this is the aspect of Judaism that is fading. We have chosen Judaism for our children because I personally do not believe in giving children (while they are young) choice in the matter. However, I do not think they will choose Judaism for themselves if they are consistenly given the message that they are only "half" of the tribe, or the result of something that "wasn't approved." The church, however, will have no problem welcoming them to join and be full members. I am hoping that the synagogue will do the same.

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The whole "tribal" aspect of Judaism

Author: Susan (---.milwaukee.k12.wi.us)
Date: 12-10-00 22:28

Becky:

One fundamental difference between Christianity and Judaism is that Christians tend to look upon religion as a private relationship between God and each individual, and it seems that they expect others to look upon it the same way. Ever since Paul, Christianity has sought to include people of all national and ethnic backgrounds into the Christian plan. Judaism, on the other hand, developed as the communal relationship between God and The Children of Israel. If you look in the Jewish scriptures for a justification, you won't find anything about personal salvation, but you will repeatedly find mention of a covenant with the ancestors Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and a promise that if The Children of Israel keep that covenant, collectively, then they will be permitted to inhabit the national homeland which is The Land of Israel. On Yom Kippur, we don't simply focus on our own individual shortcomings, but we use plural pronouns to atone for the sins of the the entire congregation. When a gentile converts to Judaism, she or he essentially adopts Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob as ancestors, joining "the tribe," so to speak. Judaism has never suggested that gentiles should convert; it treats gentiles differently because as people whose souls were not at Sinai, they have no obligation to fulfil the commandments of Judaism. If we were to say that all human beings were equally eligible to be included in the Jewish community without any special conversion process, then we would have to say all human beings are also equally responsible for fulfilling the mitzvot of the Torah as well. I don't think that's what you want, is it?

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Author: mpfreed (---.jakinternet.co.uk)
Date: 12-11-00 12:01

To answer Becky,

There could be a case for accusing Judaism of being 'racist' or 'tribal' on the basis of matrilineal descent only. That case is completely shattered by the fact that any sincere gentile can become converted to Judaism. I know many who have done so in the Orthodox way - and that isn't easy. Matrilineal descent is the rule for most of the Jewish world. Every religion has rules and, provided you are properly informed about these rules for admission, you can make an informed choice as to whether to accept them or not. There is a 'tribal' or, better, a 'communal' component to Judaism as Susan points out. Most of our prayers, for example, are couched in the plural and every Jew, in theory, should feel responsible for one another. Perhaps admission to Judaism is made hard (though never impossible) because we don't feel it necessary for gentiles to be Jewish. The Talmud says that "the righteous of ALL peoples have a place in the world to come".

However, Becky, as your husband (according to your posting in another forum) is interested in Reform and Reconstructionist Judaism there should not be any problem for any of you future children within those movements. Reform, in 1983, adopted the patrilineal principle which means that, in their eyes, a child with only one Jewish parent - provided it is brought up Jewish - IS Jewish. Unfortunately this not accepted by Conservative or Orthodox Jews and NEVER will be. (I write that, advisedly, because even besides the ideological objection to it, the most strident in rejecting patrilineality, the Orthodox, are growing very well thank you without recourse to encouraging intermarriage - as they would accuse Reform of doing by introducing it) That, it has to recognised, could be the source of future problems for you children within the Jewish world in general.

The foregoing is the cause of the 'schism' developing in the Jewish community in the US at least, that I wrote about in my posting, where many Jews are and will not be recognised as such by other Jews and marriage between them (without conversion) will be impossible. It also bears on the original subject on whether or not American Jewry is fading or reviving. In my opinion it has started fading but at the same time there are signs of an eventual revival. If that does take place however a Jewish community will emerge that will be more Orthodox in character than today.

Murray Freedman

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Author: Becky (4.18.252.---)
Date: 12-11-00 21:42

Thanks for responding to my post. Murray, I found your statement from the Talmud, that all righteous peoples have a place in the world to come, very comforting. I wish the Christian faith could be so reasonable. Yes, I do know that the reform and reconstructionist synagogues would accept my children. My concern was that I want my children to freely explore the Jewish community. They will surely meet people from conservative and orthodox backgrounds, and may want to marry someone from these backgrounds, too. They may also live in Europe for a few years - or permanently. I just want these experiences to be as positive as possible - and smooth over any conflicts if I can. If it becomes true, as you suggest Murray, that American Jewry will become more orthodox - then, I feel all the more reason to convert them when they are young.

Also, thanks Susan, for your response. Your statement that Christianity is more internal is right on the mark. It is hard for me to understand the more communal, "tribal" aspect to the faith. In fact, it's so foreign, I think all I can say is that I just don't get it. Not even my nuclear family is close, so the whole ancestor issue is really different. Appealing, but different. Also, I do think that there needs to be a conversion process for each faith.

Your responses really made me think, and I appreciate them. I think I had assumed that a child's religious identity is the one they were raised in, period. So, therefore I was offended that my background could compromise my child's religious identity, even though he would be raised Jewish. Then again, to take communion in a church or to be married in a church, the Christian needs to be "baptized." You can do that when you are an infant, or when you are an adult. So, maybe I can think of it as similar to having to convert my kid to be accepted into the wider Jewish community (wider than reform, that is)?

By the way, this is all specific to young children. I know that adults can choose Judaism and be accepted. However, I do believe in making the choice for a young child so that they can have a single religious identity.

Hope this sheds some light on what I was thinking. The more I think about it, the more confusing it seems. It is unpleasant for me to think of anything as racist. I've been frustrated about these issues for some time, and I do apologize if I've offended anyone. It's good that we're talking about this, eh?

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Author: Susan (---.milwaukee.k12.wi.us)
Date: 12-11-00 22:32

Becky:

Well, I feel relieved that you didn't take any offense at what I wrote. I think Murray put it very well about all righteous people having a place in the world to come.

I'm not very knowledgeable about Reform, but it was my understanding that they only recognize children as Jewish if there are no other religions practiced in the family. I would look into the question of whether they would consider your children as Jewish if you are actively Christian. I would encourage you to give them a Jewish education as children, though, because learning Judaism is much more difficult as an adult. It's always much easier to go from Judaism to Christianity if one eventually chooses to than the other way around. I just hope that you don't teach your children to whine nor rail ungraciously against the rest of the Jewish world's refusal to accept Reform's changes (the way some people do).

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Jewish "tribalism"

Author: Susan (---.milwaukee.k12.wi.us)
Date: 12-11-00 23:13

Becky:

You mention having a less than tightly knit family. How do you feel about your United States citizenship? I've been following a discussion on another board, about why American schoolchildren today don't all recite the Pledge of Allegiance, and the revelation hit me that both that discussion and the larger discussion here are really the same discussion.

When you stop to think about it, Judaism really is a government. It has a legal code, consisting of both a written constitution and a lot of statutes. It recognizes a Lawgiver. It has a judicial system. It requires certain public obligations and services. As dispersed as we may be, there is a Jewish polity. We share a common history, a common heritage, common traditional values, and a common language.

The classical American aversion to authority may come into play where Judaism is concerned just as much as it does with draft boards and the IRS. Lots of people don't like political authorities telling them what to do, and neither do they like religions telling them what to do. I'm not going to extend this analogy, but I think it's a very apt one. Bringing it back to your particular situation, belonging to the Jewish people is a lot like being a citizen of a nation.

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Author: becky (---.dsl.gtei.net)
Date: 12-12-00 01:54

Well you know, teaching my kids to whine and rail ungratiously was not part of my plan. I do like the analogy of being a citizen of a country. That I can understand - thanks. The only lingering question I have is this (if we forget about Reform/Reconstructionist revisions for a minute):

My children would have to be converted because I am not Jewish. However, my neighbor who has a Jewish mother/non Jewish father does not. Would a Jewish mother who raises her son Catholic have a child who is more Jewish than mine, who would be raised Jewish by a Protestant mother? To some it is apparently so. I'm totally confused, and to me it still seems somewhat racist. I'm not sure I understand the conversion process, but isn't a child dedicated to Judaism in some way when they are named or during a bris? If they are bar/bat mitzvahed, don't they take the faith as their own and become responsible, Jewish "adults?"

My husband is telling me that it is pointless to discuss this, and I might as go along with what's easiest. To some degree, I agree. However, I think it is very hurtful, and I doubt the productiveness, of categorizing people into "real" this or "not real" that. I've had enough discussions with conservative Christians who've told me I'm not a "real" or "responsible" Christian for having married a Jew.

But - before my head goes around in circles.... I realize that what this is a centuries old tradition that does deserve respect, and I don't mean by my personal frustration to "trash" it. I am willing to accept the tradition as being "the way it is," but it would help me to have another perspective. By the way, I don't think you can really offend me. Religion is hard to discuss, so I ascribe a lot of good motives.

Best wishes.

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Author: mpfreed (---.vip.uk.com)
Date: 12-12-00 16:46

Yes I like Susan's analogy too.

Although as a born and bred Jew I have not had to think about matrilineality - one just accepts it as our long held tradition (probably about 2,500 years old by the way) - I realise, Becky, your difficulty with it. In most other cultures and religions descent is patrilineal - as I think in Islam, for example - but really it's what is likely to happen in practice that counts. It is true that your neighbour's child who has a Jewish mother/non Jewish father would not (for C and O) have to be converted but in a case like that the need to do so rarely occurs. For unless the child is brought up and educated to be Jewish, experience has shown that it would probably not opt to be Jewish - whatever its status - and I have already quoted statistics on the minority of children of mixed marriages being brought up Jewish. It is true that no conversion would be neccesary if, say,the child of a Jewish mother would one day wish to marry a C or O Jew. Yet, no self-respecting rabbi would marry them without ensuring that he/she had a minimum of Jewish knowledge and education.

Just a general observation here after reading many contributions to the forums on this site. So many compromises and curious mixtures of customs etc. are being effected in trying to bring up children in mixed marriages and being fair to the backgrounds of both parents that many of the children will unfortunately end up being confused when they get to the age when they can think about it . Because Judaism is perhaps more demanding in many ways than, say, Christianity, it is the former that is probably going to be ditched by many of them - though it is probable that many will also be put off all religion completely because of the inevitable tensions involved in their bringing up. These observations are not made by me to discourage anyone, but they do arise from general overall knowledge of the situation (and statistics from surveys that I have quoted) and personal (though not very close) experience. One cannot help falling in love with someone who has a different religion but, as the postings to these forums confirm, many problems arise (many of them totally unexpected) when it comes to bringing up children. I must say I do admire the way that most of you are coping and I am quite sure that you will be successful in what you are trying to achieve.

Murray Freedman

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matrilineal vs. patrilineal

Author: Susan (---.milwaukee.k12.wi.us)
Date: 12-12-00 18:57

Becky:

You don't come across as the ungracious whining and railing type, but there are people here who do, or who deny that Jewish law is what it is, or who deny the legitimacy of the denominations which follow Jewish law.

I can understand how you might find the relative status of your children and your neighbor's children unfair, but as Murray writes, it's highly unlikely that hers would ever wish to return to Judaism anyway. Clearly, the matrilineal rule has, until recently, helped increase the chance that Jewish women will get Jewish husbands. As the mother of three Jewish daughters, I am therefore in favor of it.

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Author: Becky (4.18.252.---)
Date: 12-12-00 21:00

Thanks, Susan and Murray, for your replies. While I may not personally like matrilineality, having your perspectives does help. I think also just having someone acknowledge the difficulty of understanding this helps, too. Thanks so much.

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The "Traditionalists"

Author: Len (---.ptc.com)
Date: 12-13-00 22:08

Susan - It's good to see that your posting on a message board again. How are things?

By the way, when are the "Traditionalists" going to stop railing and whining about what the liberals are doing?

Becky,

I would like to offer some insight from a different perspective:

Religion (including Judiasm) is a personal relationship with God!

Laws change.

The laws only matter if you believe/have faith in the arbitrors.

Judiasm is more like three countries vying for the same name.

"Traditionalists" will NEVER accept patrilineal descent because the Reformers did it without asking them first.

All movements are full of hypocrites:
Reformers who are Jews twice a year.
Conservatives and Orthodox who don't follow Halacha but say they are somehow better than their liberal compatriots.

The only Jews that matter are not Reformers or Conservatives or Orthodox, but the serious Jews who want to see their religion continue.

I can feel the flames coming already!

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Author: mpfreed (---.vip.uk.com)
Date: 12-14-00 09:04

To Len,

I don't think you can fairly describe the concern and sorrow expressed by the 'traditionalists' about what the liberals are doing as "railing and ranting".
Moreover in terms of impact on numbers - the theme of this particular forum - the 'traditionalists' are getting less and less worried about the liberals since losses to Judaism and the Jewish community are very much greater amongst the latter than amongst the Orthodox who are growing much faster than is as yet reflected in any statistics.

I would also comment on the further points you mention:-

> Religion (including Judiasm) is a personal relationship with God!

Judaism goes beyond that - it includes relationship to other Jews and the world beyond that. Even the Ten Commandments reflect that. They were given inscribed on two tablets. One for the duties of Man to G-d and the other for his duties to his fellow Man. They are equally important. Observing mitzvot is not just a private personal thing.

> Laws change.

True - but only to a certain extent. Halacha is dynamic but alters only very slowly.
There is no comparison with the wholesale and sudden changes that the liberals effected to fundamental beliefs and practices - and remember this was only some 200 years ago.

> The laws only matter if you believe/have faith in the arbitrors.

True but a non-sequitur. I take it the liberals do have faith in their arbitrors and decisors. Who are they by the way ??

> Judiasm is more like three countries vying for the same name.

If you radically change the rules of a game, say chess, it no longer remains chess though it may bear some resemblance to it. The same goes for Judaism

> "Traditionalists" will NEVER accept patrilineal descent because the Reformers did it without asking them first.

True - but not for your given reason. They see no need to change such a basic definition of Jewish identity which has been followed for some 2,500 years. Patrilineality is only accepted by a small minority of world Jewry.

All movements are full of hypocrites:

Very true, and of course that goes for all religions. Hypocrisy is a function of human nature and is not necessarily a reflection of the worth of any particular religion or movement. It's much easier not to be a hypocrite about a religion with few or easy rules to keep. Someone once observed that "Hypocricy is the homage paid by vice to virtue"

> The only Jews that matter are not Reformers or Conservatives or Orthodox, but the serious Jews who want to see their religion continue.

This statement begs the questions: what is a 'serious Jew' and what in this context is 'their religion' ?

> I can feel the flames coming already!

I can smell the burnt toast !!!

Murray Freedman

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Murray

Author: Len (---.ptc.com)
Date: 12-14-00 16:45

Murray,

You are obviously a serious Jew. My definition of a serious Jew is simple, a Jew who cares about the future of the Jewish religion and actively seeks to nurture and grow that future. For various reasons Jews align themselves with the various movements. While I will admit that many "reform" Jews are not serious I would also expect you to admit that many "conserative" and "Orthodox" Jews are not serious as well.

Arbitror are arbitrary. Orthodoxy claims Torah , as the word of God, is the final arbitror but the Torah requires human interpretation through the Oral Law and ultimately the rabbinate to discern judgement. My experience has been that even the Orthodox rabbinate at the shul level has different interpretations of Torah based on the Rabbi. The Conservative have a set of principles that they can not break but outside of that also have much leeway in thier decision making process. The liberals just leave it to the individual.

So, what is the point to all of this. Anywhere that you can find a group of serious Jews working to develop a serious Jewish community that speaks to your understanding of God and his relationship with Israel is where you should be. In fact I would like to thank Susan for a suggestion she made to me.

Although I spend my Sabbaths at the Reform Temple services I participate in a minyan at a Conservative/Orthodox, long story, shul. Both places are full of serious Jews.

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Is_American_Jewry_Fading_or_Reviving

Author: mpfreed (---.vip.uk.com)
Date: 12-14-00 19:41

Len,

> You are obviously a serious Jew.

I hope I am otherwise I wouldn't go to the trouble of debating the subject with you.

>My definition of a serious Jew is simple, a Jew who cares about the future of the >Jewish religion and actively seeks to nurture and grow that future. For various >reasons Jews align themselves with the various movements. While I will admit >that many "reform" Jews are not serious I would also expect you to admit that >many "conserative" and "Orthodox" Jews are not serious as well.

I've already implied that with my comments about hypocricy and human nature. That is not the issue however - one must always distinguish between the player and the game.

>Arbitror are arbitrary. Orthodoxy claims Torah , as the word of God, is the final >arbitror but the Torah requires human interpretation through the Oral Law and ultimately the rabbinate to discern judgement.

That is certainly true. We are guided by the interpretations of the sages and great rabbis down the centuries.

>My experience has been that even the Orthodox rabbinate at the shul level has >different interpretations of Torah based on the Rabbi.

Orthodox Jewry is not as monolithic as some people think.
There are sometimes differences - but always within the parameters of halacha.

>The Conservative have a set >of principles that they can not break but outside of >that also have much leeway >in thier decision making process.

They have changed halacha to make it more palatable.

>The liberals just leave it to the individual.

This reminds me of the biblical phrase "every man does what is right in his own eyes"

>So, what is the point to all of this. Anywhere that you can find a group of serious >Jews working to develop a serious Jewish community that speaks to your >understanding of God and his relationship with Israel is where you should be.

I agree, but am concerned about our ability to transmit our shared values, beliefs and customs to succeeding generations. This touches on the theme of this forum. Our losses are so great that we will inevitably see a diminution in our numbers in the coming years. It is true that one can be concerned with numbers too much to the exclusion of quality, but there is an old Yiddish saying that "ten cobblers can make up a minyan but nine rabbis can't". Ultimately numbers do count !

>Although I spend my Sabbaths at the Reform Temple services I participate in a >minyan at a Conservative/Orthodox, long story, shul. Both places are full of >serious Jews.

That is what I would call being 'ecumenical' or eclectic. Have you ever wondered why you can't avail yourself of the opportunity to participate in a daily minyan in a Reform Temple ?

All the best

Murray Freedman

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Insight, shminsight!

Author: Susan (---.milwaukee.k12.wi.us)
Date: 12-15-00 00:14

Len:

You flatter yourself again. Do all people who affiliate with of the Reform movement fancy themselves "Reformers" or did you make up that term yourself? Maybe people in my congregation should all start calling ourselves "Conservators!"

I'm afraid I'm going to have to ask you to justify the accusation that movements you don't belong to are "full" of hypocrites. There may be hypocrites wherever one goes, but to say a movement is "full" of hypocrites suggests that a preponderance of its members are hypocrites, that the people who are hypocrites vastly outnumber the people who are not. Such an accusation should not be made lightly.

If people are Orthodox, and I don't just mean attend an Orthodox synagogue, it's because they actually believe in following halakha. If they don't keep kosher, don't keep Shabbat, etc., then they aren't really Orthodox. Are you trying to suggest that the majority of Orthodox Jews may go through the prescribed religious rituals but then they go out and commit murder, adultery, theft, and an excess of other forbidden acts?

I will admit that there are many people in my congregation who are hypocrites: who pay lip service to the Torah on Saturday morning and then go out to the mall or Burger Barn on Saturday afternoon. They certainly don't think that they personally are "somehow better than their liberal [sic]
compatriots [aha!]" though. They just think Conservative Judaism is better than Reform Judaism because it just seems more . . . well, like Judaism.

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Author: becky (---.dsl.gtei.net)
Date: 12-15-00 00:53

Hi. Thanks, Len, for your comments. I have lots of questions now.

Murray, referring to your "chess" analogy, you seem to be saying that Reform Jews aren't "real" Jews. However, most of them were born of Jewish mothers, so aren't they Jewish? Sounds like the core issue is Reform itself, not necessarily intermarriage, which seems to be a "symptom" of liberal Judaism. Maybe a better solution to your numbers dilemma is to promote the conservative branches of the faith. You've stated several times that the conservative branches are growing in size while the Reform is not. That must be a good sign for you.

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Is_American_Jewry_Fading_or_Reviving

Author: mpfreed (---.vip.uk.com)
Date: 12-15-00 06:01

To Becky,

> referring to your "chess" analogy, you seem to be saying that Reform Jews aren't "real" Jews. However, most of them were born of Jewish mothers, so aren't they Jewish?

Of course they are. Being Jewish has both religious and ethno/cultural components (in this it may be unique) so that it is even possible not to profess any religion and still be Jewish. (I personally wouldn't like that extended to Jews who willingly, under no duress, convert to another religion.) I once heard someone on the radio say "I'm a Jewish atheist - thank G-d " which is a prime example of muddled thinking ! In the 1990 US National Jewish Survey as many as 20% of the core population of 5.5 million claimed not to have any religion.

>Sounds like the core issue is Reform itself, not necessarily intermarriage, which >seems to be a "symptom" of liberal Judaism.

Intermarriage can occur amongst Jews in any or none of the religious movements.
However, it is undoubtedly true that as one moves to the left in the Jewish religious spctrum its incidence increases. I have seen the following figures as to its prevalence:- 3% Orthodox, 37% Conservative, 53% Reform and 72% secular Jews. More often than not then Jews who intermarry have a weak Jewish upbringing. Sometimes marrying 'out' can make them think more about and take a greater interest in their heritage and there have been many examples of this phenomenon on these forums. Unfortunately, for all practical purposes, this is often too late.

>Maybe a better solution to your numbers dilemma is to promote the conservative >branches of the faith. You've stated several times that the conservative branches >are growing in size while the Reform is not. That must be a good sign for you.

If its conservative with a small 'c' I would agree. What I have said is that the Orthodox are growing. There are two main reasons for this: 1. a high birth rate and a minimum of losses. 2. Baalei Teshuva - the return to Orthodox Judaism by
previously irreligious Jews or those from other movements. Another extremely important factor is their emphasis on education. At the last count there were 676 Jewish day schools in the US, and the vast majority of them are Orthodox.
In many ways the growth of Orthodoxy is quite astonishing, for immediately after the war many observers were predicting its imminent death. I have no figures relating to Conservative or Reform but I would guess they have passed their peak as far as numbers are concerned and are now in decline in spite of the larger number (than Orthodox) of converts they attract.

Shabbat Shalom

Murray Freedman

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Susan

Author: Len (---.ptc.com)
Date: 12-15-00 12:44

Perhaps my impressions are clouded by where I live. LIving where I live today I have found the following trends. In the reform, conservative, and modern Orthodox congregations I have found that there are a core group of dedicated individuals. Then there are the "affiliated" members many, who are not honest about their Judiasm.

Judiasm is about community. My fiance and I have gone to several conservative services on Saturday and we drove. Guess what? We couldn't find a parking spot.

"I will admit that there are many people in my congregation who are hypocrites: who pay lip service to the Torah on Saturday morning and then go out to the mall or Burger Barn on Saturday afternoon. They certainly don't think that they personally are "somehow better than their liberal [sic]
compatriots [aha!]" though. They just think Conservative Judaism is better than Reform Judaism because it just seems more . . . well, like Judaism."

Do as I say not as I do? How is that more like Judiasm.

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Author: Susan (---.milwaukee.k12.wi.us)
Date: 12-15-00 14:24

Len:

You wrote 

Do as I say not as I do? How is that more like Judiasm. 

That is the individual speaking. That is not Judaism speaking. Do you understand what Murray meant when he wrote "one must always
distinguish between the player and the game."?

People who attend Orthodox synagogues often do so because they don't find that what Reform people are doing in their "temples" feels like Judaism to them. Conservative Judaism tries to bridge the gap between modern liberal thinking and preserving tradition. If we're not as purely pious in our practice as Orthodox think we should be, that's because it's not always easy to make that compromise between the two. Can you not appreciate that people struggling with dichotomies might be doing so honestly and in good faith? There may be some issues where we disagree with Orthodox, but we don't want to throw out the baby with the bathwater. Perhaps it makes you feel better to know that some Orthodox people will contend that any Jew who prays with mixed seating is not practicing Judaism, either.

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Author: mpfreed (---.jakinternet.co.uk)
Date: 12-18-00 14:41

Not long ago I came across this (to me, ridiculous) statement by French Jewish intellectual and writer, Alain Finkielkraut :- "Marrying a non-Jew doesn't mean one is abandoning one's tradition. On the contrary, it demonstrates a desire to disseminate the message throughout the world. Those who wish to remain Jews in a world they don't care about are reducing Judaism to something no better than a lobby". This novel interpretation of being a "light unto the Gentiles" thus involves intermarriage. Marrying out to him is elevated into a mitzvah !

I would like reactions to this statement. Have any Jews reading this forum married out with the conscious intention of spreading the values, customs and practices of Judaism to non-Jews. I very much doubt it ! Methinks that Finkielkraut is indulging in a desperate attempt to rationalise, probably post hoc, what has obviously been his own course of action.

Murray Freedman

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Intermarriage

Author: Gavriel (---.ipt.aol.com)
Date: 02-13-01 15:42

Observant Jews were strongly discouraged from leaving Europe because the American Jewish community right from the beginning strove to leave Europe and serious Jewish living behind. When a revered rabbi from Europe by the name of Jacob Joseph was sent to America to set up a chief rabbinate (like that which exists in Britain and Israel today) he was fought at every turn until he suffered a stroke and later died. Rabbi Jacob Joseph was trying to organize the corrupt kosher meat industry so that it would consistently produce kosher meat, and to establish an educational system to teach the Oral Law, among other things. By the early 1900s, when Rabbi Joseph was overcome, American Jewry was set on a very sad course of disunity and assimilation.

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Author: mpfreed (---.webport.bt.net)
Date: 02-14-01 12:16

To Gavriel,

Rabbi Joseph was for a short time Chief Rabbi of New York and you describe accurately what happened to him. What has been the experience of American Jewry as regards assimilation and the disunity you mention is exactly what many of the 19th and early 20th century Eastern European rabbis feared.
However, do not be too despondent. There are many positive developments taking place - particularly in the field of education. Although overall the US Jewish population must be declining, look out when the results of the 2000 US Jewish National Survey are announced, for an increase in the numbers of Orthodox.

Murray Freedman

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ignore posting, testing software

Author: IFF editors (---.ne.mediaone.net)
Date: 12-18-01 13:40

ignore posting, testing software

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Message to Jonathan Rosenblum

Author: Ed Case (---.ne.mediaone.net)
Date: 02-05-02 07:44

If you would like to write an op-ed piece for us, please submit it to me as such and we will consider publishing it.

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deleted article

Author: Susan (---.as12.nwbl0.wi.voyager.net)
Date: 02-05-02 09:44

The Jonathan Rosenblum piece which appeared here very briefly can be found on the Aish ha Torah site, at http://www.aish.com/jewishissues/jewishsociety/Get_Me_To_The_Church_On_Time.asp

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Is American Jewry fadiing or reviving?

Author: mpfreed (---.proxy.aol.com)
Date: 02-06-02 05:19

Very interesting article by Jonathan Rosenblum. Written from the Orthodox perspective it nevertheless is a damning indictment of the effect of intermarriage on American Jewry.
Very recently the findings of a new survey were released; the American Jewish Identity Survey 2001. Analysing its results, it can be seen that American Jewry has declined by some 12% since the 1990 American National Jewish Survey (both surveys used the same methodology). This is in spite of the influx of many tens of thousands of Israeli and Russian Jews over the 11 year period. There can be no doubt that intermarriage is playing a prominent role in this decline.

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test of software

Author: Ronnie (---.proxy.aol.com)
Date: 02-14-02 11:46

ignore

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