Israel and Interfaith Families - Page 1

Page 1

< Previous

Next >

Welcome to our discussions!

Author: InterfaithFamily.com Editors
Date: 03-27-02 13:51

We're pleased to tell you that we've changed our online discussions--and we invite you to join them! When you submit a message, it will be reviewed by our moderators before it is posted. While we will accept messages that are realistic about the challenges posed by interfaith relationships, we won't allow people to vent their opposition to intermarriage, as has happened in the past. Our goal is to make our discussions a welcoming and safe place for people dealing with interfaith relationships to turn for helpful information and support. So please--join our discussions!

^ top

Israel

Author: Karen Klein
Date: 03-28-02 16:35

I'm divorced and Jewish, and I find it upsetting that my ex-husband, who is not Jewish, now works closely with Arabs as part of his job, and has turned pro-Arab and anti-Israel. He conveys this point of view to our children. I convey a pro-Israel point of view to them, but I worry that they feel torn between us and won't be strong supporters of Israel. I have many criticisms of the way Sharon handles things, and of the settlements on the West bank, but am pro-Israel.

^ top

Re: Israel and Interfaith Families

Author: Ed Case
Date: 05-08-02 21:18

I want to bring to our readers' attention the following letter to the editor that was printed in the May 6 issue of the Forward newspaper, under the title "The Force of Interfaith Committment":

I was pleased to see your editorial (April 19) debunk the notion that Israel's political star is on the wane in this country because of the rise of interfaith marriage. Jews who are committed to Israel don't lose that passion if they intermarry. Many intermarried Jews were either at the Washington rally--as I was--or were among those who you said "stood a bit taller because of it." And their ranks were swelled by the many non-Jewish relatives who as a result of intermarriage become new supporters of Israel. Increasing political support for Israel is yet another good reason for the Jewish community to welcome interfaith families.

Edmund C. Case
Publisher, InterfaithFamily.com

^ top

Israel and Interfaith Families

Author: Sean
Date: 05-10-02 08:04

My thought is that intermarriage is a good thing and a key to increased support for Israel in the United States' future. As families open up and allow more cultures into them there is a greater feeling of acceptance for different people. It is one of the things that makes America great.

My own mother, when I began dating my fiance, went out and bought Judaism for Dummies. She is not exactly one to be open to my dating women of other Christian faiths, but she opened up to Orly right off the bat. When the current violence broke out in Israel and the West Bank my mother was glued to the television. Surely my realtionship with a Jewish woman influenced my mother's perception of the crisis.

In addtition, it influenced my teaching of the crisis in my classroom. As I teach my high school students about what is going on there, I stress the history of the Jewish people as a reason for the creation of the current state of Israel.

However, it is a two way street. I have pointed out, to a frustrated fiance, the many times Israel has broken international law. I have showed her pictures and shared stories of the suffering on the Palestinian side. I am an open minded person who believes one should go through life with open eyes. Just as with my United States history, I acknowledge the bad with the good. Just because I support Israel does not mean I am going to rubber stamp approval over what I perceive as mistakes or illegal actions on the part of it. Israel is dependant on foreign approval for its future survival. I support the country a lot more now than I did before my interfaith relationship, but that doesn't translate into blindness of faults.

Sean

^ top

Re: Israel-

Author: Rabbi Joel Schwartzman
Date: 05-11-02 00:20

Lets' try this again. All of the argumentation for and against Israel and the Palestinians notwithstanding, the real issue is finding solutions to the crisis. Today I read an interesting if not altogether provocative piece on the website www.bermigo.com which advocates that it is time for a Marshall plan for the Palestinians which would utilize outside money, leadership and expertise to rebuild the Palestinian state using Palestinian labor, but paid by paymasters who do not deal with the corrupt PLA or other Palestinian organizations. There cannot be peace until the Palestinians have work and something to live for. There will never be peace as long as there is no democracy save Israel's in the region. There will not be peace until Palestinian text books are changed from the hatred they teach today to ways of developing peaceful and democratic means of dealinjg with their problems.
The attitude toward United States on the Arab street has become increasingly bitter and hostile. The Arabs claim to love their Palestinian brothers. What better time for the US to step forward with a proposal, funding by Arab oil money and US and European funds, run by experts from the US, backed by multi-national peacekeeping forces, than the present. It's a possible win-win for the US in the Moslem world; it forces the hand of the Saudis, Iraqis, et.al.; it quiets the meddling Europeans; and it enables warring inter-faith couple to dwell, once again, together in peace because both sides get what they want: those who support Israel get a homeland with secure and defensible borders, and those who sympathize with the plight of the Palestinians get a Palestinian state whose economy is backed 100% by their good friends and us Americans!

It would sure beat the endless, shrill and agonizing cycle of verbal and physical violence on everyone's part. It gives us a hope for peace.

^ top

Re:

Author: Perp
Date: 05-11-02 10:05

"It wasn't on Sam and Sara's family radar scope yet. But then the violence intensified--suicide bombings throughout Israel, Israel's incursion into Ramallah, the destruction of the Jenin refugee camp. "

Rabbi, please. It is quite apparent (but no longer deemed newsworthy) that saying "the destruction of the Jenin refugee camp" is woefully inaccurate. There was destruction IN the Jenin camp which may or may not have been justified, but the entire camp was most certainly NOT destroyed. In fact, aerial photos & objective reports show that the "destruction" took place in an area approximately the size of 1.5 US football fields.

^ top

It Will Be Different

Author: Robin Margolis
Date: 05-20-02 11:27

Dear Friends: Briefly, I think that the growth of intermarriage will create a Diaspora of adult children and grandchildren of intermarriage (of whom I am one) who will have a more balanced view of Israel. I predict that they will support the state of Israel's existence, but they will not have the "My Israel Right Or Wrong" attitude prevalent amongst so many born Jews in today's Diaspora.

I support Israel's existence, but am deeply dissatisfied with how they have treated the Palestianians, and am not happy with how interfaith families are treated in Israel. I strongly support Jewish peace groups that have worked for years to end the bloodshed (see www.shalomctr. org if this interests you). Also, I think that when the war in Israel dies down, intefaith family organizations could consider lobbying for better treatment for interfaith family members in Israeli society.

Cordially,
Robin Margolis

^ top

Re: It Will Be Different

Author: Felicia
Date: 05-22-02 05:08

Hi Robin -

Why do you assume that children of intermarried Jews will necessarily have a "more balanced" (by which I take it you mean less pro-Israeli, although do correct me if I misunderstood you) view of Israel than children of an all-Jewish couple???

Do you think this would be true of Jewish offspring of intermarried couples, or just non-Jewish offspring of intermarried couples?

-- Felicia

^ top

Re:

Author: Robin Margolis
Date: 05-24-02 16:33

5/24/02

Dear Friends:

Felicia asked:<< Hi Robin - Why do you assume that children of intermarried Jews will necessarily have a "more balanced" (by which I take it you mean less pro-Israeli, although do correct me if I misunderstood you) view of Israel than children of an all-Jewish couple???

Do you think this would be true of Jewish offspring of intermarried couples, or just non-Jewish offspring of intermarried couples? >>

Robin replies: Hi, Felicia! As an activist on behalf of adult children of intermarriage I interviewed hundreds of other adult children of intermarriage in the 1980s and 1990s. Some of them identified as Jewish, some as Christians or other faiths, some secular, some undecided, some "both." They strongly supported the state of Israel's existence, but had little connection with it, largely because the Jewish community treated even those of us who were Jewish-identified in that era very coldly. It is difficult to summarize the diverse attitudes I encountered, but overall, they were not happy when they learned about the Law of Return/Who Is A Jew conflicts, both in the US and Israel. They were indignant when they realized that those of them who were patrilineal (Jewish father, non-Jewish mother) would be subjected to legal discrimination in Israel and considered "not Jewish."

I met no child or grandchild of intermarriage who supported the Israelis as unquestioningly as born Jews. They ask questions.

Let me summarize for you with just three more recent anecdotes:

I received an e-mail in the late 1990s from a woman in Europe, who is the direct descendant of a founder of the state of Israel. Her mother is Jewish, her father is a Christian European. She was raised in Israel, Orthodox (her mother's faith), with her father's willing consent. (Her father's Christian family rejected her). But she said that she found no warm welcome among the Israeli Jews she grew up with either -- they always pointed out that her father "wasn't Jewish." Finally, she left Israel, entered a university in Europe, met an American Christian, and plans on: (1) marrying the American Christian; (2) raising her children as Jews; and (3) not returning to Israel except for visits. I asked why she wasn't going back to Israel. She said that as a child of an intermarriage, even though her mother's family had "founding family" credentials, she was made very unwelcome. She also said that she was tired of the violence and arguing in Israeli society.

Here's another anecdote. I had a buddy, a young woman with a Jewish father and a Roman Catholic Italian mother. She was considering conversion to Judaism, had been raised Catholic. She signed up for a Jewish youth tour of Israel in the 1990s. She is a very nice, polite young woman with a good character. Well, all the way to Israel the other 20 somethings (born Jews, mostly secular) baited her mercilessly about her Christian mother, and repeatedly emphasized that she "wasn't Jewish." She was appalled, this was supposed to be a fun tour, right? Guess not. She saw a lot of Israel, and when she came back, resolved to remain a Catholic. I urged her to reconsider, and not let her bigoted tour turn her off to her father's people. While she remains very supportive of Judaism, and even attended some sessions of my Jewish women's group, she said that after what she'd been through, she couldn't consider abandoning her mother's Roman Catholic faith.

Both of these young women sincerely wanted to support Israel. It is a testament to the children of intermarriage's forbearance that both of them still are supportive of the state of Israel.

My youngest brother, who identifies as a Christian, also visited Israel a few years ago, and studied briefly at Hebrew University. He loved the country, but was astonished when people told him --- they didn't ask, they told him --- "you have a Jewish mother, you're a Jew," and lectured him on his responsibility to give up Christianity, while ignoring his protests that he had made a sincere commitment to our father's Christian faith. (I laughed heartily, I had warned him that would happen.)

I plan to return to activism on behalf of adult children of intermarriage in a few years, and I am curious to see what stories that I will hear then.

Cordially,
Robin

^ top

Column by Gil Mann

Author: Ronnie Friedland
Date: 05-30-02 12:38

Hi Readers,
I am posting a column by Gil Mann that is relevant to this discussion.

RELEASED 5/22/02
On America Online, there is a popular feature called Judaism Today: Where Do I Fit? (AOL keywords: Judaism Today - Non-AOL members: www.jewish.com/news/gilemail.shtml.) People anonymously send in E-Mail to the author of the feature, Gil Mann and he selects one for a public response in his Jewish E-Mail column. This column is now syndicated internationally in Jewish papers and websites. Here is this week's edited E-Mail and Gil’s response:

Do Jews Have Religious Freedom in Israel?

Dear Gil:

I liked your last column explaining Zionism. Only one caveat -- Israel doesn't exactly have freedom of religion.

The Orthodox have religious hegemony over the state. Interfaith couples can't even get legally married unless they go for a ceremony outside of the country. A teenage Jewish boy who died had his corpse transported from one cemetery to another because his parents were not Jewish according to Jewish Law (they each had a non-Jewish mother), and the Orthodox control the cemeteries.

Also, only recently, the Israeli Supreme Court had to intervene on behalf of Conservative and Reform rabbis to get them some legal recognition in Israel.

I believe it would be OK if we leveled with people like that young woman. She would respect your realism.

Your Fond Devil's Advocate,

G

Dear G:

First, a brief recap: My last column was a response to a Christian woman with questions about Zionism. I explained that Zionism is the movement to support a Jewish homeland and that other religions are freely practiced in Israel.

How ironic that you should point out that freedom of religion is an issue for Jews in Israel. The examples you cite are difficult and complicated, but I would not argue with you. Further, I think you are correct, honestly acknowledging the problems you describe is proper.

I debated whether to bring up this divisive issue in the last column and today, while Israel is in crisis. She now needs our undivided support. Precisely because Israel needs our support, I have decided I should publicly air the problems you describe.

This is why: we Jews have always argued amongst ourselves and have had serious divisions. You will see examples of this through out our history, going all the way back to the Bible. The Jewish people are family and families argue.

The debate of defining Judaism and who is a Jew has been contentious since the State of Israel was established. These issues are far from resolved. Still progress is being made and non-Orthodox Jewish streams are slowly but surely being heard. Most Israelis are not Orthodox so I can assure you; this is a debate that will continue to be argued long and hard in Israeli homes, institutions and courts.

BUT, when family is threatened, that is the time to close ranks and put our differences aside. This is exactly what Israelis and Jews everywhere are doing now and why I have decided to feature your email this week. This is not a time to be picking on ourselves. We have plenty of enemies who need no help from us! Suicide bombers do not care about Jewish parents or what synagogue their victims attended or did not attend. Their only concern about cemeteries is to put as many Jews as possible in them!

After selecting your email, and apropos of what I just wrote, I received an announcement that the UJC (United Jewish Communities -- the former UJA) has brought the four movements of Judaism (Orthodox, Conservative, Reform and Reconstructionist) together for an emergency appeal to raise funds for Israel. Over $120 million has been raised so far.

Of equal import is the raising of consciousness that we must be united now. I could quote all of the heads of all the movements who gave moving statements in support of the effort. But I have decided to quote Rabbi Eric Yoffee head of the Reform Movement because they have had perhaps the most uphill battle for recognition in Israel. In spite of that, here is what he said:

"To the people of Israel we say, 'You are not alone. The Jewish people is a single people, interdependent in every way, rooted in covenant and history and we stand with you.' And to the terrorists we say, 'We Jews are a diverse people. We have diverse political views. But understand that as long as the weapon you use is terror, as long as the language you use is anti-Semitic, as long as you fail to accept Israel's right to live in peace and security, as long as you fail to honor the fundamental values upon which all major religious traditions rest, we stand as one in the battle to defeat you."

He is right. We all need to stand shoulder to shoulder with each other and with Israel. In that light, I would encourage people to contribute by contacting your local Federation, calling 800-966-4852 or sending a check payable to UJC Israel Appeal to United Jewish Communities, PO Box 30, Old Chelsea Station, New York, NY 10113. For more ways to help Israel go to: www.ujc.org/content_display.html?ArticleID=37977

The issues you raise in your letter require respectful debate. When we return to more peaceful times (hopefully soon) we can afford to again argue amongst ourselves to find compromises and solutions. May the spirit of unity that now moves us to stand by Israel, remain with us, so next, we sit with each other and work out our religious differences.

Thank you for writing!
Gil
Gil's welcomes your E-Mail comments and questions about this column or any subject. Write to DearGil@aol.com, or visit his website www.beingjewish.org.

^ top

Re: Israel- Marshall Plan

Author: Robin Margolis
Date: 06-10-02 06:00

6/10/02

Dear Rabbi Schwartzman: I think you're absolutely right. A Marshall Plan asssisting both the Israelis and the Palestinians is far more likely to bring peace to that region than escalating warfare. I'm very glad you brought this up!

Cordially,
Robin Margolis

^ top

Discrimination Against Israeli Children of Intermarriage.

Author: Robin Margolis
Date: 08-10-02 10:35

8/10/02

Dear Friends:

I had been asked about children of intermarriage in Israel --- if you go to the link below, you will find a story about discrimination against the children of intermarriage in Israel, stuffed into a story about discrimination against converts to Judaism in Israel.

Basically, the identity of the thousands of "non-Jews" in Israel in the story --- which the story does not mention --- are the thousands of Russian Jews descended from Jewish-Christian intermarriages, and probably the Ethiopian Jews who were cut off from the rest of Judaism for centuries, all of whom have come to live in Israel as Israeli citizens. Evidently they're Jewish enough to pay taxes.

Even worse, the Reform movement in Israel boasted in the story that while it allows --- allows! --- the children of Jewish fathers and non-Jewish mothers in its Israeli synagogues to attend if they are reared as Jews, and allows (allows!) them to have bar and bat-mitzvahs --- but --- they will not be considered as real Jews by their own Israeli Reform congregations --- even after all that! --- until they apparently undergo conversion before a joint Reform-Conservative-Orthodox rabbinical board, where the Orthodox have apparently dragged their feet about conversions.

See the link below:

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/A/JPArticle/ShowFull&cid=1028814630132

It is stories like this which suggest to me that adult children of intermarriage as a whole will not be as supportive of Israel as born Jews for many years.

As the adult child of a Jewish Orthodox mother and an Episcopalian father, and a member of Jewish Renewal, I think discrimination in Israel against interfaith families is wrong, and undermines the whole point of a Jewish state. It is extremely bad for Israel and Judaism worldwide. I urge members of interfaith families to speak up against this type of behavior, whether it occurs in Israel or the Diaspora.

Sincerely,
Robin Margolis

Reply To This Message

^ top

Re: JPost article re:non-Jews & b'nei-mitzvot

Author: Felicia
Date: 08-25-02 06:22

Hi Robin,

Thank you for bringing this article to our attention.

I think, when reading articles like this, one should understand that under Jewish Law, there is a distinction between *Jewish* children of intermarriage and *non-Jewish* children of intermarriage. Obviously, these groups of individuals have a different status when it comes to Jewish religious matters (and it's quite a stretch to label that "discrimination").

Of course, they do not have a different status when it comes to civil matters, which is why I found this next statement of yours to be a bit odd:

<< Evidently they're Jewish enough to pay taxes.>>

Yes, all Israeli citizens pay taxes (it has nothing to do with being “Jewish enough,” whatever that means).

Speaking of paying taxes, other readers of this forum might find it interesting that both Jewish and non-Jewish children of intermarriages who immigrate to Israel receive the identical generous package of new immigrant’s rights, including greatly reduced taxes, low mortgage rates, free healthcare, and free Hebrew lessons. These benefits are also the same as those given to children of 2 Jewish parents, or to children of 0 Jewish parents (one only needs one Jewish grandparent or spouse to immigrate to Israel and receive full citizenship). Seems like children of intermarriage – whether Jewish or not -- are given pretty equal treatment to me…

In short, the Israeli Reform Movement – which doesn’t even recognize those with only patrilineal Jewish descent as Jews - (after all, that was a very recent innovation of the Anerican Reform Movement, and is not recognized by Reform movements in many other countries) - allows their bimahs to be used for "pseudo-b’nei-mitzvah" celebrations for non-Jewish children who will eventually convert to Judaism. The article states that the purpose is to ease the integration of non-Jews into the Jewish religious circles they may eventually choose to join. This hardly strikes me as "discriminatory"

The only problem I thought of when reading this article is that I don’t really understand the meaning (halachically) of a non-Jew having a bar- or bat-mitzvah (traditionally, a ceremony marking one’s formal recognition of one’s responsibility to keep mitzvot), as non-Jews are not obligated to follow the commandments outlined in the Torah. Having a bar-mitzvah ceremony of some sort *post*-conversion makes a lot more sense.

Felicia

^ top

Re:

Author: Ilan
Date: 08-28-02 14:47

I married a non-Jewish woman. That she married a Jewish guy has certainly made her more sensitive to what is going on in Israel from the Jewish perspective.

^ top

Re: JPost article re:non-Jews & b'nei-mitzvot

Author: Robin Margolis
Date: 08-30-02 14:40

8/30/02

Dear Felicia:

Felicia states:<<other readers of this forum might find it interesting that both Jewish and non-Jewish children of intermarriages who immigrate to Israel receive the identical generous package of new immigrant’s rights, including greatly reduced taxes, low mortgage rates, free healthcare, and free Hebrew lessons. These benefits are also the same as those given to children of 2 Jewish parents, or to children of 0 Jewish parents (one only needs one Jewish grandparent or spouse to immigrate to Israel and receive full citizenship). Seems like children of intermarriage – whether Jewish or not -- are given pretty equal treatment to me… >>

Robin: I point again to the link to the article in the Israeli newspaper I cited in my previous post. Children and grandchildren of intermarriage are second class citizens in Israel. Children of intermarriage sometimes cannot be married or buried because the Orthodox rabbinical establishment --- which has been given undemocratic control of "identity" in Israel -- is not satisfied that they are "Jewish" enough.

It doesn't matter if we're given new immigrants support packages in a Jewish state, if we know that every so often we're going to have social and legal problems because we're not "real" Jews. That's second class citizenship in my book.

Sincerely,
Robin Margolis

^ top

Re:

Author: Felicia
Date: 08-31-02 23:32

<<Children of intermarriage sometimes cannot be married or buried because the Orthodox rabbinical establishment --- which has been given undemocratic control of "identity" in Israel -- is not satisfied that they are "Jewish" enough. ... That's second class citizenship in my book. >>

**Marriage/burial laws for non-Jews:
Non-Jews in Israel may be married in any of the numerous churches, mosques, etc. in Israel. Assuming they meet the religious requirements of that establishment, it does not matter one iota if they are the children of intermarriage or not. There are also Christian, Moslem, etc., as well as secular cemetaries.

**Marriage/burial laws for Jews:
Any halachic convert or anybody with a Jewish mother may be married/buried under the auspices of the Israeli Rabbinate. Again, the fact that one is the product of an intermarriage has no bearing.

**Differences between halachic conversion requirements as applicable to children of intermarriages vs. other Gentiles:
NONE.

I see no evidence in these policies of second class citizenship for the children of intermarriages.

Felicia

^ top

Interfaith Families Not Treated Fairly In Israel

Author: Robin Margolis
Date: 11-20-02 10:37

11/20/02

Dear Felicia:

I have been tied up for several months helping care for a friend who was undergoing surgery, so I have been delayed in responding to your posting.

1. I had stated: <<Children of intermarriage sometimes cannot be married or buried because the Orthodox rabbinical establishment --- which has been given undemocratic control of "identity" in Israel -- is not satisfied that they are "Jewish" enough. ... That's second class citizenship in my book. >>

2. Felicia replied: **Marriage/burial laws for non-Jews:
<<Non-Jews in Israel may be married in any of the numerous churches, mosques, etc. in Israel. Assuming they meet the religious requirements of that establishment, it does not matter one iota if they are the children of intermarriage or not. There are also Christian, Moslem, etc., as well as secular cemetaries.>>

Robin replies: You may want to look at recent news stories from Israel. I saw one in which two Israeli Jewish soldiers, of "mixed" descent (they were apparently Jewish-identified descendants of Russian-Jewish families that had intermarried) were killed during a fight with the Palestinians, and were subsequently denied burial in Jewish cemeteries, because they were not Jewish enough. They were good enough to die for the Jewish state, but not "Jewish enough" to be buried as Jews!

That's discrimination against members of interfaith families. That's second-class citizenship for members of interfaith families. Surely you're not suggesting that descendants of intermarriage who identify as Jews, but don't meet Orthodox requirements, should be buried in Christian, Muslim or secular cemeteries?

Israeli policies towards interfaith families are immoral. Asking people to pay taxes and fight and die for you, and then denying them basic marriage, burial, and religious identity rights is undemocratic.

3. Felicia stated: "**Marriage/burial laws for Jews:
Any halachic convert or anybody with a Jewish mother may be married/buried under the auspices of the Israeli Rabbinate. Again, the fact that one is the product of an intermarriage has no bearing.

**Differences between halachic conversion requirements as applicable to children of intermarriages vs. other Gentiles:
NONE. I see no evidence in these policies of second class citizenship for the children of intermarriages."

Robin replies: You "see no evidence in these policies of second class citizenship for the children of intermarriages"? You gotta be kidding. What's democratic, or fair, or moral about a policy that limits Jewish identity and citizenship in Israel --- fundamental rights of marriage, burial, and other identity rights --- only to people defined as Jewish by the Orthodox rabbinate --- people who've had Orthodox conversions or have a Jewish mother?

These policies are despicable. They're especially immoral given that for centuries born Jews and interfaith families were repeatedly denied basic freedoms and rights of citizenship in Europe unless we agreed to convert to Christianity by a particular state's approved church and its rites. Interfaith families weren't "Christian enough." I believe that a European Union country endorsing such policies today --- or the U.S. --- would find itself in serious international disrepute.

Now the modern state of Israel discriminates against us for not being Jewish enough. Please!

Sincerely,
Robin Margolis

^ top

dispelling some myths

Author: Felicia
Date: 12-08-02 09:02

Robin,

This trumped up story about denying burial rites to non-Jewish terror victims was seized upon by cynical Israeli politicians representing a fringe group within the Israeli political spectrum, who simply exploited the situation to further their own anti-religious agenda.

In reality, several solutions exist for burying non-Jews in Israel. The most obvious is to bury non-Jews in non-Jewish cemeteries. These include Christian and Muslim burial grounds (where, incidentally, Jews cannot be buried), as well as secular cemeteries operated by some kibbutzim.

From what I understand, it is forbidden by halacha (Jewish law) for a Jew to be buried next to a non-Jew. However, a halachically allowable solution is to erect some sort of barrier (nothing too conspicuous; a low wall, hedge or a walkway will do) between the Jewish and non-Jewish graves. This is sometimes done in Diaspora communities as a means of burying Jewish corpses where no Jewish cemeteries exist.

Currently, 25 such cemetery grounds adjacent to traditional Jewish cemeteries exist in Israel.

These sorts of creative solutions are frequently employed in Israel to accommodate non-Jews (including non-Jewish children of intermarriage – the subgroup of non-Jews about whom you are most concerned) without forcing Jews to violate Jewish religious convictions.

I hardly think the adjectives “immoral,” “despicable,” and other negative epithets apply to this sensitive and well-thought-out solution.

Here is an article for your reference:

(http://www.jewishmediaresources.com/article/66/)

Felicia

^ top

Israeli Discrimination Against Interfaith Families

Author: Robin Margolis
Date: 01-27-03 01:26

1/27/03

Dear Friends: I've been tied up with various projects for several months, so I have not been able to visit here for quite a while.

1. Felicia defends Orthodox control of Israeli Jewish cemeteries --- which is used to deny Jews who are descended from intermarriages burial as Jews --- as follows:

Felicia: "In reality, several solutions exist for burying non-Jews in Israel. The most obvious is to bury non-Jews in non-Jewish cemeteries. These include Christian and Muslim burial grounds (where, incidentally, Jews cannot be buried), as well as secular cemeteries operated by some kibbutzim.

"From what I understand, it is forbidden by halacha (Jewish law) for a Jew to be buried next to a non-Jew. However, a halachically allowable solution is to erect some sort of barrier (nothing too conspicuous; a low wall, hedge or a walkway will do) between the Jewish and non-Jewish graves. This is sometimes done in Diaspora communities as a means of burying Jewish corpses where no Jewish cemeteries exist."

Robin replies: Excuse me. We were discussing Israeli citizens, Jews who are descended from intermarriages, who pay taxes, fight in the Israeli army, and sometimes die for Israel --- and when the time comes to be buried there, they suddenly --- according to the Orthodox who control the cemetaries --- aren't "Jewish" and as "non-Jews" can't be buried there --- that's outrageous! If the Israel wants them to pay taxes, and serve in the army as "Jews", and then to refuse them burial in Jewish cemetaries is outright discrimination.

You suggest that members of interfaith families --- can be buried as "non-Jews" in non-Jewish cemeteries in Israel? Or we can be buried behind a barrier in a Jewish cemetary? What is fair or moral about that?

2. Felicia continues: "These sorts of creative solutions are frequently employed in Israel to accommodate non-Jews (including non-Jewish children of intermarriage – the subgroup of non-Jews about whom you are most concerned) without forcing Jews to violate Jewish religious convictions."

"Creative solutions"? Creative for whom? Certainly not for interfaith families. "Accomodate non-Jews" --- but members of interfaith families are not being "accomodated" --- refusal to bury those of us as Jews who identify as Jews is cruelly rejecting behavior. And "non-Jews" according to who --- these people have made aliyah, come to live in Israel, mostly consider themselves to be Jews, join the army, pay taxes, but are not Jewish enough to be buried with Jews who have two Jewish parents?

You suggest that we members of interfaith families should submit to discrimination because treating us fairly might be "forcing Jews to violate Jewish religious convictions." Let's be real here --- it would compel [some Orthodox] Jews to look at their [bigoted version] of Jewish [who-is-a-Jew?] religious convictions.

3. Felicia then objected to my criticism of Israeli policies: as follows: "I hardly think the adjectives “immoral,” “despicable,” and other negative epithets apply to this sensitive and well-thought-out solution."

"Sensitive"? "well-thought-out"? You gotta be kidding. Since when is humiliating people and legally discriminating against them because of their parentage --- even after they die --- "sensitive" and "well-thought-out"?

In the immortal words of Walt Disney's Daffy Duck, Israeli policies towards interfaith families are: "Dethpickable!"

Anyone who is interested in clear pictures of how interfaith families are treated in Israel is invited to read:

1. "Arab and Jew: Wounded Spirits in a Promised Land" by David K. Shipler (Penguin Books, revised and updated 2002 edition) --- which has an entire chapter on interfaith couples in Israel and how they and their children are treated, both the the Jewish-Christian couples, and the Jewish-Arab Christian and Jewish/Arab Muslim couples. It's not pretty.

2. "War Without End: Israelis, Palestinians and the Struggle for a Promised Land" by Anton La Guardia (St. Martin's Press, May 2002). There are scattered references to interfaith couples in the book, and again their situation in Israel is not pretty.

I suggest to interfaith couples and adult children of intermarriage be careful that when you give to any Israel-affiliated cause, that you make sure that you are not giving money to a group that discriminates against interfaith families. Ask before you give! And lobby any Israeli-affiliated groups that you give money to about the status of interfaith families in Israel. It needs to change.

Sincerely,
Robin Margolis

^ top

Re:

Author: Felicia
Date: 01-28-03 00:53

Dear Robin,

In your previous post, you state:

"If the Israel wants them to pay taxes, and serve in the army as "Jews", and then to refuse them burial in Jewish cemetaries is outright discrimination."

Israel does not expect its citizens to serve in the army and pay taxes because they are *Jews*; they expect their citizens to serve in the army and pay taxes because they are *Israelis*. Once again you have erroneously equated these two groups of people.

In addition to many non-Jewish children of intermarried families, many other Gentiles serve in the IDF (Israeli Defense Forces). The Druze and Bedouin communities, who are neither Jewish nor do they identify as Jews, serve in the IDF. Additionally, many Israeli Jews do not serve in the army [e.g., men who made aliyah when they were over 28 years old, or many Orthodox women who serve in “Sherut Leumi” (National Service – kind of like the Peace Corps, but domestic instead of international), or many Ultra-Orthodox men who get deferments for studying full-time in yeshivas or kollels].

All these groups pay taxes because they benefit from the social services (socialized health care, subsidized public transportation, roads, scholls, etc.) that the state offers. It has nothing to do with being Jewish. It has to do with being an Israeli citizen.

Performing civic duties as an Israeli does not make one Jewish. Only halachic conversion, or being born to a Jewish mother, does.
------------------

Regarding burial arrangements:

Try looking at it from another perspective:

If an Orthodox Jew makes arrangements to be buried in a Jewish cemetary, he and his family have a right to expect that his body and gravesite will be treated in accordance with halacha. This includes not being buried next to a non-Jew. Whether you agree with halacha or not is immaterial, and certainly does not give you, or the families of non-Jews, the right to infringe on the religious beliefs of observant Jews by demanding that they change halacha to suit your needs. Furthermore, no amount of name-calling (i.e., referring to observant Jews as “bigots”) will grant you this right.

Lastly, your unsubstantiated claim that burials for non-Jews are “humiliating” is patently false. I am not getting my information from books; it is based on first-hand observations.

A few weeks ago, I had the unfortunate experience of attending a funeral of a non-Jewish victim of Palestinian terror. Although the victim (a friend’s sister) was not Jewish, many family members were, and she was raised in a Jewish-identified household. I was privy to this information only because I am close to the family; one could not easily infer this information from the manner in which the funeral was conducted or the location of the funeral.
------------------

Overall, I think Israel is making definite strides in dealing with social issues that have arisen due to the large numbers of non-Jewish immigrants they have so generously volunteered to take in. I hope the civic and religious authorities in Israel continue to seek out and find other creative and sensitive ways to accommodate the needs of its non-Jewish citizens without violating halacha and without sacrificing the Jewish character of the world’s only Jewish State.

Sincerely,
Felicia

^ top

Re:

Author: Robin Margolis
Date: 03-04-03 16:04

3/4/03

Dear Felicia:

You continue to defend policies towards intefaith families that are simply not defensible. Before you defend the state of Israel's treatment of interfaith families, I suggest that you have a look at the chapter on interfaith families in Shipler's book, cited in my previous post.

1. Felicia states: "Israel does not expect its citizens to serve in the army and pay taxes because they are *Jews*; they expect their citizens to serve in the army and pay taxes because they are *Israelis*. Once again you have erroneously equated these two groups of people."

Robin replies: Not true! People of Jewish descent in Israel, whether one Jewish parent, two Jewish parents, one Jewish grandparent, etc., are considered "Jews" for civil purposes, such as military service and other civic duties. They are not considered just "Israelis."

Descendants of intermarriage suddenly become "non-Jews" (your phrase, not mine), when they wish to marry or be buried at which point the Orthodox rabbinate suddenly gets to decide whether they are "Jews" under Israel's partial theocracy.

(Palestinian Arab Israeli citizens, even though legal citizens of Israel, are not considered "Jews," and are therefore not allowed to serve in the Israeli army, even when they volunteer to do so. The Druze and the Bedouin are allowed to serve in the Israeli army as part of Israel's "divide and conquer" policy towards Arabs, but they are becoming disenchanted with their second-class citizen status in Israel, and there is some indication that younger Bedouins are so resentful that they are not interested in serving in the Israeli army.)

Furthermore, Israel *does* expect its citizens who are Jews or descendants of intermarriage to serve in the army and pay taxes --- in Shipler's "Arab and Jew" book, cited above, one of the common Israeli arguments against legalizing intermarriages is that there won't be enough Jewish soldiers for the Israeli army if children of intermarriages start proliferating.

(The fact that the ultra-Orthodox get to duck military service, leaving the non-Orthodox male and female Israeli Jews to serve in the military and die for them, while they stay in yeshivas and hide in non-military service, does not alter the fact that Israel regards its male and female Jews as its primary focus for military recruitment.)

Frankly, I am surprised you brought up the widespread Orthodox draft-dodging in Israel, as it only adds to my case against Israeli mistreatment of interfaith families. Many Orthodox won't serve in the military, but they want the "right" to prevent descendants of interfaith marriages from marrying or from being buried, even if we died doing the military service they won't do.

2. Felicia states: "Overall, I think Israel is making definite strides in dealing with social issues that have arisen due to the large numbers of non-Jewish immigrants they have so generously volunteered to take in."

Robin replies: "social issues that have arisen due to the large numbers of non-Jewish immigrants" --- wait a minute --- Russian Jews, many who are descendants of intermarriages, who clung to fragments of Judaism over seven decades of oppression by the Communist goverments --- they're not "non-Jews" --- they're possibly better Jews in some way than you or I. They've made more sacrifices to remain Jewish than most Jews.

Second, "generously volunteered to take in" ?? --- aren't we discussing Israel? The country that was founded to take in the Jews? Moreover, the country that pressured Jews from all over the world for decades to immigrate there because the Arabs have a higher birthrate, and the Israeli Jews are afraid that they will be overrun and forced out. "Generosity" has absolutely nothing to do with it. It's their national mandate to take us in, and also, in their view, their best means of survival.

Third, "definite strides" --- what definite strides for interfaith families has Israel made to ease the pervasive social and legal discrimination against us in Israel? I would be glad to hear of something they did for interfaith families. Last I heard, intermarriage between a Jew and a non-Jew in Israel is illegal.

The two modern countries where my parent's intermarriage was illegal were Nazi Germany and the state of Israel. For starters, Israel could abolish their anti-intermarriage stance. That would be a real good start in improving their treatment of interfaith families.

3. Felicia states: "Lastly, your unsubstantiated claim that burials for non-Jews are “humiliating” is patently false. I am not getting my information from books; it is based on first-hand observations."

Robin replies: I'm not sure what you're talking about. I am referring to well-publicized, repeated instances of descendants of intermarriage, self-identified as Jews, who are denied burial in Israeli Jewish cemeteries because those cemeteries are under Orthodox control, and some of these instances are said to include descendants of intermarriage who were killed fighting for Israel. These instances occur and are widely publicized in the media (Israeli newspapers and Jewish news services).

4. Felicia states: "A few weeks ago, I had the unfortunate experience of attending a funeral of a non-Jewish victim of Palestinian terror."

Robin replies: I don't understand your point. If she was a Christian or a Muslim, and was buried in Israel in a Christian or Muslim cemetery, there's no problem with her funeral. If she wasn't Jewish, and was buried in a Jewish Israeli cemetery, by your own logic (not mine!), your duty --- according to your logic --- would have been to report her family to the Orthodox authorities and halt the funeral. If she was the descendant of an intermarriage, (you state that she wasn't Jewish but was raised in a Jewish-identified household) --- then it was still your duty --- not my view of your duty, that's for sure --- to stop the funeral and report her family to the Orthodox authorities.

Can you clarify? I'm not following you.

5. Felicia states: "I hope the civic and religious authorities in Israel continue to seek out and find other creative and sensitive ways to accommodate the needs of its non-Jewish citizens without violating halacha and without sacrificing the Jewish character of the world’s only Jewish State."

Robin replies: But the Israeli authorities aren't doing anything creative or sensitive for interfaith families! Name one thing they've done to stop discrimination against us recently --- I would be thrilled to hear of it.

"Without violating halacha" --- I hate to break it to you, but 80% of all Jews worldwide --- at least --- including at least half of Israel's Jewish citizens --- are not Orthodox. This is basically a call for the continued imposition of an Orthodox theocracy on the Israelis, many of whom vocally, and bitterly resent it --- not to mention the rest of us in the Diaspora. Israel's founders planned for Israel to become a secular democracy. The attempted imposition of halacha on all Israeli citizens is not democratic or secular. Or even fair, for that matter.

"without sacrificing the Jewish character of the world's only Jewish State." So Israel's Jewish character will be preserved only if people like myself and our families are subjected to continuing social discrimination under the rigid Orthodox version of halacha? The founder of Israel, Theodore Herzl, would roll over in his grave. He was a Reform Jew, and his wife was the patrilineal descendant of an intermarriage. If he lived in Israel today, his wife and children would be "non-Jews" in your view.

Sincerely,
Robin Margolis

^ top

Re:

Author: Felicia
Date: 04-28-03 08:34

Hello Robin,

I hope you had a Pesach kasher v’sameach.

Regarding your remarks about Theodor Herzl:

Halacha applies equally to all Jews – both famous Zionist pioneers like Theodor Herzl and ordinary Jews like you and me.
I doubt good old Theo is doing too many graveyard somersaults over the non-Jewish status of his children. Before his whole Zionism kick, Herzl proposed mass conversion to Christianity as a means of escaping anti-semitism. [Perhaps his son liked the idea; he formally converted to Christianity.]

<<Second, "generously volunteered to take in" ?? --- aren't we discussing Israel? The country that was founded to take in the Jews? >>

Exactly! But it wasn’t created with the mandate to take in non-Jews, which is why I stand by my original choice of words.

Israel not only grants citizenship to any Jew who requests it, but under the Law of Return, it also grants citizenship to anyone (Jewish or not) with a Jewish spouse, parent, or grandparent. Only 49% of the immigrants who came to Israel in 2000 even consider *themselves* to be Jews. Heck, if many of these folks don’t even consider *themselves* to be Jewish, why should you be so incensed when rabbis don’t consider them to be Jewish either?

In short, Israel has extended its generosity above and beyond it’s original mandate. The initial goal of the broad Law of Return was to offer refuge not only for Jews, but also those who were being persecuted for being of Jewish descent. Make no mistake about it -- I think this is a very noble cause. Nowadays, however, the Jewish Agency combs telephone books in the former Soviet Union, trying to locate potential immigrants by finding those with Jewish ancestry. Frankly, I don't see how this policy will benefit anyone.

<< Israel's founders planned for Israel to become a secular democracy.>>

Not exactly... Many American Jews mistakenly assume that because Israel is a democracy, it's government operates (or should operate) in exactly the same manner as that of the U.S. government. Actually, unlike the U.S, which bases its government upon (among other things) the strict separation of church and state, Israel is built upon a series of balances between various political, religious and nationalistic forces. These compromises were hammered out during the nation's early years in an agreement known as the "Status Quo Law."

In 1948, David Ben Gurion -- the Israeli "Founding Father" with perhaps the most secular lifestyle -- recognized the wisdom of having a uniform standard for religious matters. After consulting with various Jewish intellectuals from all over the religious-observance spectrum, he concluded definitively that Orthodox religious standards are the only ones accepted by all the world’s Jews. As part of the Status Quo Law, he granted the Orthodox Rabbinate (which had been governing religious matters for the Jews living in the region since the Ottoman rule in the 1400's) sole jurisdiction over religious matters (including marriage, divorce) for Jewish Israelis.

<< But the Israeli authorities aren't doing anything creative or sensitive for interfaith families!>>

I'm happy to report that that is not true at all! As I’ve already explained in detail (see my post from 12-08-02) there have been significant innovations in burials procedures for non-Jews who identify with Judaism and/or have Jewish family. I think that’s a perfect example of the way creative solutions can be worked out that cater to the sensitivities of the parties involved without causing either party to compromise their values. In a similar vein, the Israeli government has been discussing establishing civil marriage rites for those individuals whose religious status falls outside the jurisdiction of the current religious groups which currently conduct recognized weddings in Israel.

See? – Compromises are being worked out where they can be. But it takes work, understanding, and time.

In my experience, it is far more constructive to invest energy in formulating pragmatic solutions that take into account the needs of all parties involved than to waste energy lambasting those who do not share your religious or political beliefs.

Respectfully,
Felicia

^ top

Israel Does Discriminate Against Interfaith Families

Author: Robin Margolis
Date: 05-16-03 11:04

5/16/03

Dear Friends:

If you'd really like to see what conditions are like for interfaith couples in Israel, see my article in the May 2 issue of interfaithfamily. com, the part III of a series of articles on this site about Jewish-Muslim relationships.

My article is entitled: "Jewish-Muslim and Jewish-Christian Intermarriages in Israel: Romeo and Juliet Revisited."

I also suggest that you visit: http://www.irac.org/index_e.asp

That is the website of the Israel Religious Action Center (IRAC), the public and legal advocacy arm of the Israel Movement for Progressive Judaism. They have been fighting for freedom of religion in Israel, and have been trying to help interfaith couples there. Their website contains numerous accounts of discrimination against interfaith families in Israel. If you want to help interfaith families in Israel, please give money to this organization.

Felicia's 4/28/03 post basically tries to explain away a very ugly, undemocratic situation.

1. "Halacha applies equally to all Jews – both famous Zionist pioneers like Theodor Herzl and ordinary Jews like you and me."

No, Felicia, Orthodox halacha does not apply to a Reform Jew like Theodore Herzl or a Renewal Jew like myself. The Orthodox claim that their version of halacha applies to all Jews for the purpose of retaining power over the rest of us, even though they are a numerical minority within Judaism.

The Roman Catholics tried that tactic for centuries in Christianity, claiming that their canon (church) law applied to all Christians, long after the Greek Orthodox and Protestants had broken away from Roman Catholicism. It took the Roman Catholics many centuries to give up that tactic.

2. Felicia states: "I doubt good old Theo is doing too many graveyard somersaults over the non-Jewish status of his children. Before his whole Zionism kick, Herzl proposed mass conversion to Christianity as a means of escaping anti-semitism. [Perhaps his son liked the idea; he formally converted to Christianity.]"

Let's show Dr. Herzl respect, and not call him "good old Theo." He bankrupted himself and his family funding the Zionist movement. He ruined his health through tireless work to establish the state of Israel. He wasn't "good old Theo" and his work wasn't a "Zionism kick." I have often observed that some people from Orthodox backgrounds refer to him with contempt because it is embarassing (to them) that the founder of Israel was not Orthodox.

Ironically, not only did Herzl found Israel, but he helped (secretly) to establish the Orthodox Zionist Mizrachi party, according to an excellent biography of him, "The Labyrinth of Exile" by Ernst Pawel. He hoped they would form a counterweight to challenges he faced from other segments within the Zionist movement.

And let's not make fun of his son, either. After Herzl's sudden death from his chronic heart trouble, his wife died three years later. His three children, all under the age of 14, who had serious emotional problems were left bankrupt and orphaned as very young teenagers.

^ top

Re: Israel Does Discriminate Against Interfaith Families

Author: Robin Margolis
Date: 05-16-03 11:49

Dear Friends:

(to continue my 5/16/03 post)

I also suggest that you visit: http://www.irac.org/index After Herzl's sudden death from his chronic heart trouble, his wife died three years later. His three children, all under the age of 14, had serious emotional and health problems, and were left bankrupt, orphaned, ill, and ambivalent towards a Zionist movement that had taken most of their father's time, health and money.

The Zionist movement tried to help them out, but all three children came to tragic ends. Pauline died of heart trouble, complicated by drug addiction, her brother Hans --- who had converted to Christianity after experiencing enormous emotional problems as the crown prince of the Zionist movement --- committed suicide after losing Pauline --- and Trude, who apparently remained Jewish, and enthusiastic about her father's work, became a manic-depressive patient, and then was murdered by the Nazis in the Terezin concentration camp. Herzl's children paid a terrible price for his dream of Israel. They deserve compassion.

2. Felicia states: "Many American Jews mistakenly assume that because Israel is a democracy, it's government operates (or should operate) in exactly the same manner as that of the U.S. government. Actually, unlike the U.S, which bases its government upon (among other things) the strict separation of church and state, Israel is built upon a series of balances between various political, religious and nationalistic forces."

Felicia is referring to the cynical compromises some of the secular Israeli leaders made in the late 1940s that have resulted in a state in which my parent's intermarriage would have been illegal and many other fundamental human rights are abridged, and the Orthodox control most religious matters.

No real democracy interferes with its citizens' fundamental right to marry people of any origin that they wish. No real democracy establishes one version of religion as the law of the land. Laws prohibiting Jews from marrying non-Jews in Israel are a mirror image of the former centuries-old European Christian laws that prohibited intermarriages. Law establishing the Orthodox as the sole arbiters of Jewish status are a mirror image of European Christian laws that for centuries determined citizenship and many social and legal rights on whether or not you belonged to the state's preferred version of religion.

Except nowadays, if any European country had the same anti-intermarriage laws as Israel, and the same promotion of only one version of a state religion as a citizenship and identity criterion, they'd be kicked out of the European Union.

Europe changed; Israel must.

3. Felicia states that Israel is helping interfaith families by: "significant innovations in burials procedures for non-Jews who identify with Judaism and/or have Jewish family .... the Israeli government has been discussing establishing civil marriage rites for those individuals whose religious status falls outside the jurisdiction of the current religious groups which currently conduct recognized weddings in Israel"

What's so helpful about that? Interfaith families don't want to be separated in death from each other by artificial ground barriers. Check out the Israeli Religious Action Center's website for the immense emotional and legal problems created by this discrimination. And the civil marriage provisions --- which should have been created when Israel was founded, as part of being a normal democracy --- are staunchly opposed by the Orthodox, who have stated quite bluntly that if civil marriage is permitted in Israel, it will allow legal intermarriages and they don't want that.

4. Felicia states: "Compromises are being worked out where they can be. But it takes work, understanding, and time. In my experience, it is far more constructive to invest energy in formulating pragmatic solutions that take into account the needs of all parties involved than to waste energy lambasting those who do not share your religious or political beliefs."

Excuse me, but it's the Orthodox in Israel who have consistently refused to compromise, have "lambasted those who don't share [their] religious or political beliefs", and have installed the labyrinthine structure of social and legal discrimination against interfaith families. Groups like the Israel Religous Action Center have been formed to fight for freedom of religion in Israel, and that includes equality for interfaith families.

Anyone who doubts what I say, see my article and the books I cite, and visit the Israeli Religious Action Center's website.

There can be no "compromises" in which the fundamental human rights of interfaith families are permanently abridged to keep the theocracy of an Orthodox minority in Israel happy.

Sincerely,
Robin Margolis

^ top

Israel and conversion

Author: scotty
Date: 07-13-03 16:15

It is nice to finally see that Israel is waking up and getting real. There is no reason what- so- ever that reform and conservative conversions should not be recognized, especially those done outside of Israel.

To be a reform Jew is a very different thing than to be a conservative Jew, and likewise an orthodox Jew. As a conservative Jew myself I question both aspects of orthodox Judaism and reform Judaism, and yes, I evcen question some aspects of conservative Judaism.
But the fact is is that these 3 branches of Judaism account nearly all Jewish people, and like it or not, the Orthodox have recognize this if only as matter of fact. Slowly they are coming around.

Scotty

^ top

Re: Scotty....

Author: michelle
Date: 09-11-04 08:58

hello Scotty.....

I agree with you....i don't know which country you from...I'm from Canada and i'm conservative jew too.but i find that orthodox jews are not very open to others.they have they own way.....they very strict...and it's not easy for others who don't think like them.Be interrested to discuss with you.sincerly.michelle

< Previous

Next >

Getting Married?

Israel and Interfaith Families - Page 1

Page 1