Lieberman and Intermarriage - Page 1

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Author: InterfaithFamily.com Editor (---.home.net)
Date: 10-04-00 13:24

Post your responses to the news article "Senator Lieberman: Intermarriage is Kosher"

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Lieberman approves of interfaith marriage?

Author: Michelle Oxman (---.unr.net)
Date: 10-06-00 22:05

As an intermarried person, I was pleased with Sen Lieberman's statement. I don't suppose the reaction from conservative and orthodox quarters is particularly surprising. After all, they are always the ones speaking out against intermarriage anyway.

If Judaism is not going to include those of us who are different, or whose vision of the family of humanity includes everyone and not just other Jews, then I don't really want to be part of it. This has been a difficult position to arrive at, and I'm glad that in my community the Reform congregation, at least, welcomes intermarried, inter- and transracial, and lesbian and gay families. If they didn't, I couldn't be there wholeheartedly.

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Author: Dave (---.proxy.aol.com)
Date: 10-07-00 19:13

A Jew caught eating on a fast day can easily find nothing wrong with intermarriage. What's 'surprising' about that?

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Intermarriage, fasting & judgment

Author: Michelle Oxman (---.unr.net)
Date: 10-08-00 00:10

And your point is?
If you see a Jew eating on a fast day, do you judge him/her without knowing whether she is pregnant or nursing a baby, or he is diabetic?
Isn't fasting (or not) between that individual and G-d? Or did She delegate you Her personal scorekeeper?

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Author: Ellen (---.milwaukee.k12.wi.us)
Date: 10-08-00 09:44

Are we now "excluding" a person from "the family of humanity" unless we marry the person? Calm down, Michelle!

In any case, what makes a senator from Connecticut an authority on Jewish law? Especially a senator running for Vice President of the U.S.? He's no more qualified to pass halachic pronouncements than the woman in the grocery store. Besides, this man isn't running for office of a rabbinic association. He wants as many people as possible to vote for him, including the 90+ % of the population which isn't Jewish. Does he want to lose the vote of every Jew who ever had a crush on a gentile? For that matter, he'd like the votes of the Jewish sabbath breakers, sexually active gay men, pork and shrimp eaters, and everyone else who doesn't quite comply with all 613 commandments. Shame on whoever it was who deliberately raised such a misleading question in a debate on civil government. And shame on IFF for reprinting the piece here.

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"News article," huh?

Author: Ellen (---.milwaukee.k12.wi.us)
Date: 10-08-00 12:16

And shame on me for writing the above (below?) without bothering to consider the source, and all the more shame on you for letting yourselves be duped by such a writer. If you go back and take a careful look at the publication from which the so-called "article" came, you should be able to detect a clear partisan agenda. This is obviously a right-wing opponent of Gore and Lieberman who used the word "kosher" in order to discredit the Democratic candidate.

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Lieberman's hypocrisy

Author: A Jew for Bush (---.nc.us.ibm.com)
Date: 10-10-00 14:47

Once again, this shows that Lieberman will say anything to get elected. He doesn't want to alienate the non-Jewish population by asserting that halachah doesn't allow for intermarriage. You don't need to be a rabbi to know that. (And saying that the question shouldn't have been asked is no answer. You either tell the truth or you don't.) Lieberman does not want to alienate the important black constituency, so he says he 'respects' Farrakkan and wants to set up a meeting with him. Can you imagine the uproar if Bush said he 'respected' David Duke?

Lieberman's flip-flops have left him little credibility. First he's for partial Social Security privatization - then he against it. First he's for school choice (vouchers) - then he thinks they're bad. First he's against racial preferences - then he says he's for them. And most appalingly, first he's against Hollywood's exploitation of kids - then he takes their campaign money and winks at them, telling him he won't ever tell them what to make.

If Lieberman was running as a secular or a Reform Jew, none of this would matter so much. But he is giving people the wrong impression of Orthodoxy when he says that one can interpret Torah as one wants.

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A Jew For Bush

Author: Len (---.ptc.com)
Date: 10-10-00 15:55

"If Lieberman was running as a secular or a Reform Jew, none of this would matter so much. But he is giving people the wrong impression of Orthodoxy when he says that one can interpret Torah as one wants. "

Just wonderful, I guess the next thing you'll be saying is that people should not be able to think for themselves. Who gave the Orthodox rabbinate a monopoly on interpretting Jewish Law? For that matter, the Talmud is nothing but opinion from human MEN that lived hundreds to thousands of years ago. Open up your Torah, go to Numbers or Leviticus or any of the five books and find the passage that says an Israelite can only marry an Israelite, or a Hebrew can only marry a Hebrew. When you find it please respond here! In the meantime consider this:

Joseph and his brothers didn't marry Jews
Moses didn't marry a Jew
David is a decendant of a non-Jew
Solomon "the wisest of all men" married LOTS of non-Jews

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Author: Michelle Oxman (---.unr.net)
Date: 10-10-00 21:15

Ellen,
I am calm. Restrictions on whom to marry is only one aspect of what bothers me about "Traditional" Judaism. I also don't believe that G-d would choose only one people to be His/Hers, and would prefer that we prayed for G-d to bring peace to Kol Ha-olam rather than only Kol Yisrael.

After I posted the first time, I realized that apparently the writer was referring to Lieberman as the Jew who was eating on a fast day. But it's the judgment that bothers me, the attitude of "you who don't do it my way are not REALLY Jewish." It's not so different from the attitude of some other folks in places where I've lived, who believe that their god will send me to hell when I die because I don't think the right things about him.

L'shana tova, y'all.

Michelle

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What does Len's "logic" prove?

Author: Ellen (---.milwaukee.k12.wi.us)
Date: 10-10-00 22:36

 Joseph and his brothers didn't marry Jews 
All right. So, aside from their sister Dinah, name one eligible Jewish woman alive back in those days.

 Moses didn't marry a Jew 
He married a non-Jew, but that was before he developed his sense of Jewish identity and before God gave* him the Torah.
*Since you insist on pointing out that the Talmud was written by human beings, in contrast, you must believe the Tanach is divinely written, right?

 David is a decendant of a non-Jew 
who converted.

 Solomon "the wisest of all men" married LOTS of non-Jews 
He also had Uriah killed so he could marry Bathsheva. Are you suggesting we might follow that example, too?

Good old Len must think we should all follow pre-mishnaic Judaism!

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Where is my answer?

Author: Len (---.dnvr.uswest.net)
Date: 10-11-00 12:34

Ellen,

My logic proves that Tanach has definite examples of interfaith marriage. You still have not shown me the divine commandment that prohibits interfaith marriage. Name the spot and I'll concede my point. To this day no rabbi, no conservative/orthodox Jew has defintively proved to me that intermarriage is prohibited by divine law. I bet you won't be able to prove it either. Where does your understanding of this prohibition come from? Is it because you were taught this by rabbis, your parents? Have you ever wondered where it came from instead of just accepting it as fact? Do the research, you'll be surprised by what you find.

I would like to issue a challenge to all of the posters on these boards who point out that Halacha is competely against intermarriage. Prove this point through references to Tanacha or even mishna. If you can't maybe you should consider why you believe so strongly in something that has not been commanded by God.

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Reply to Len

Author: A Jew for Bush (---.nc.us.ibm.com)
Date: 10-11-00 16:18

Len, you totally misunderstood me. I am an intermarried Reform Jew. My comments were about Lieberman's statement that intermarriage was permissable within halacha. Orthodox Jews are the strongest opponents of intermarriage, so I knew that was not true. I don't think Lieberman was being honest, and I think he was pandering to voters. I don't think intermarriage is the best thing for the Jewish people but I obviously cannot condemn people for it.. Since I am a Reform Jew and am not bound by halacha, I can excuse intermarriage and even say it has some benefits. But someone bound by halacha cannot say that.

Jewish law comes from the Oral Law as well as the Written Law. The prohibition against intermarriage is mainly in the Oral law, that is the Talmud and other rabbinic interpretations, including the Shulchan Aruch, the 'Bible' of observant Jewish practices. The command to wear a kippah, the command to light Shabbat candles, are not in the Tenach, but come straight from the Oral Law. The way we celebrate the Jewish holidays is mostly from the Oral Law. You won't get anywhere by telling an observant Jew that intermarriage is halachic, because it obviously is not. Wouldn't it be more intellectually honest to say you think halachah should change, rather than saying that it never was that way to begin with? That's my position.

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The Eveready Lenny?

Author: Ellen (---.milwaukee.k12.wi.us)
Date: 10-11-00 18:47

Is the purpose of this site supposed to be to help families stay connected with the Jewish community or to give people a place to attack and malign Orthodox and Conservative Judaism?

Len, you just keep on going and keep on going with this. Didn't you have enough of that argument with "Susan" last summer? If you want someone to argue with you, go reread that. You can also read Deuteronomy 7:3-4. If you don't like what this religion has to say, find another one you like better. And you can stop patronizing me. I don't care if you have eaten a ham and cheese sandwich and lived to tell the tale; you're still no expert.

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A Jew for Bush

Author: Ellen (---.milwaukee.k12.wi.us)
Date: 10-11-00 22:59

There is no evidence here that Lieberman himself ever actually proclaimed intermarriage to be permissible within halacha. There is only an accusation that he said such a thing, an accusation made by someone who willfully twisted Lieberman's words in order to make him look bad to Torah-observant Jews.

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Make your own minds up!

Author: Len (---.ptc.com)
Date: 10-12-00 15:32

1 When HaShem thy G-d shall bring thee into the land whither thou goest to possess it, and shall cast out many nations before thee, the Hittite, and the Girgashite, and the Amorite, and the Canaanite, and the Perizzite, and the Hivite, and the Jebusite, seven nations greater and mightier than thou;

2 and when HaShem thy G-d shall deliver them up before thee, and thou shalt smite them; then thou shalt utterly destroy them; thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor show mercy unto them;

3 neither shalt thou make marriages with them: thy daughter thou shalt not give unto his son, nor his daughter shalt thou take unto thy son.

4 For he will turn away thy son from following Me, that they may serve other gods; so will the anger of HaShem be kindled against you, and He will destroy thee quickly.

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Len's posting

Author: InterfaithFamily.com Editor (---.home.net)
Date: 10-12-00 16:07

There were other nations in the world and in the area besides the seven listed in the passages Len quotes. There is no blanket prohibition of intermarriage -- with members of all nations -- in the Torah. Even in the passage that Len quotes there is a rationale and a qualifier -- that the intermarriage will lead the Jew to serve other gods. Today many who intermarry continue to live Jewishly.

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To the editor

Author: Ellen (---.milwaukee.k12.wi.us)
Date: 10-12-00 23:43

You have repeatedly made it clear that debate on the issue of intermarriage is verboten here, but now it sounds as if you are inviting it. Should people who want to kvetch about intermarriage or defend traditional Judaism continue to take their discussion elsewhere, or are you changing the purpose of this site? Will people still be permitted to express favorable opinions only, or is open discussion of intermarriage itself now going to be allowed on this one particular forum? It might be useful to have a little clarification of just what you're trying to accomplish by bringing up the Lieberman accusation.

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Forum

Author: Len (---.dnvr.uswest.net)
Date: 10-13-00 02:16

Perhaps this site can open a forum to discuss intermarriage from a religious standpoint and then anyone who is intereested can use that forum instead of this one.

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new forum

Author: Ronnie Friedland, Editor (---.home.net)
Date: 10-13-00 09:30

Okay, forum readers. In response to Len's idea we are going to create a new forum: Does the Torah permit intermarriage?

All who think it does not permit intermarriage are invited to post their comments in that forum and to limit themselves to that forum.

Thanks for your cooperation.

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Len's questions

Author: Ellen (---.milwaukee.k12.wi.us)
Date: 10-13-00 10:45

Even though I've already taken my argument with Len to another site, I think it's a good idea to set aside a place to dispute whether intermarriage is permissible. That way, people who are very sensitive about the issue can avoid being offended by the discussion. The real issue here should be dishonest journalists who try to advance political agendas by putting words into other people's mouths.

I just want to set the record straight on one allegation Len made: Where does your understanding of this
prohibition come from? Is it because you were taught this by . . . your parents? Have you ever
wondered where it came from instead of just accepting it as fact? My parents never cared about any prohibitions on intermarriage. Had they believed what their respective religions had to say on the subject, I would never have been born.

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Author: A Jew for Bush (---.nc.us.ibm.com)
Date: 10-13-00 11:41

To those who believe this is merely a 'right-wing conspiracy' against Lieberman - yes, he did have an interview with Don Imus, the talk show host, and was asked if there was anything wrong with 'inter-racial marriage or intermarriage'. Lieberman replied that there was nothing wrong with inter-racial marriage (of course not, as anyone can become a Jew) AND there was nothing wrong with intermarriage. He did not elaborate as far as I know. Surely an Orthodox Jew should know enough not to say there was nothing wrong with intermarriage. Again, I think he was pandering to all voters, and these are not his true feelings.

I am not going to comment further, as I feel that as Jews we must be united as one with the attacks on Israelis and the failure of the so-called 'peace' process.

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Jew for Bush

Author: Ellen (---.milwaukee.k12.wi.us)
Date: 10-13-00 14:42

I didn't say that it was a conspiracy, but I think they entrapped him with a dirty question. The political bias of that particular publication should be obvious to anyone with tenth grade reading skills, and I'm disappointed that the editors here allowed themselves to be duped.

By the way, I think you stated your answer to Len's question about Jewish law very well, even though I don't quite understand how it can be binding for some of us but not for others. It's an interesting idea, though. The next time I get pulled over for doing 55 mph in a 30 mph zone, I'll just say "I'm a Democrat, officer, so I'm not bound by that particular statute!"

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New article

Author: InterfaithFamily.com Editor (---.home.net)
Date: 10-20-00 10:36

Dear Readers,

We have published two articles that deal with Senator Lieberman and intermarriage. One discusses his acceptance of intermarriage. The other reports on his support for an Israeli hospital that refuses to provide infertility treatment to Jews married to non-Jews.

You are invited to add your thoughts on either article to this forum.

I look forward to reading your comments.

Ronnie Friedland, Editor

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This you call an "article"?

Author: Ellen (---.milwaukee.k12.wi.us)
Date: 10-20-00 17:18

I wonder whether this nasty, horrible, bigoted hospital also discriminates against unmarried couples who seek fertility treatment. Sheessshhhh! Does anyone know the difference between news articles and editorials anymore?

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Author: Dave (---.proxy.aol.com)
Date: 10-21-00 19:55

Re: Message #4

I doubt that Sen Lieberman is pregnant or nursing a child. I have never heard mention of him being a diabetic.

Fasting on Jewish holidays is a communal ritual (ie WE fast) not a personal one.

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"Good Jews"

Author: Susan (---.milwaukee.k12.wi.us)
Date: 10-22-00 20:30

How ironic that Dave spent Simchat Torah typing away on his computer, publically criticising Joe Lieberman for not fasting on Tisha B'Av!

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Author: Sylvia (---.nc.us.ibm.com)
Date: 10-24-00 15:36

Ze'ev Chafets is an author for the Jerusalem Report with a well-known anti-religious bias. Not just Orthodoxy, but ANY religious expression. I'm surprised Interfaithfamily.com would reprint such a bigoted article. Surely a site that promotes tolerance would not want to endorse hateful attacks on other religious groups. This Orthodox hospital has a right to make its own policies. Catholic hospitals don't allow abortions - does this mean that if I give money to a Catholic hospital that makes me bigoted? Catholics don't allow women clergy - will this site follow up with an attack on Catholics? One doesn't have to like everything Lieberman does to recognize a scurrilous attack when one reads it.

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"Good Jews"

Author: qadi wadi (63.119.232.---)
Date: 07-26-01 13:09

I applaud Mr. chafets's opposition to the Jewish fundamentalist threat that
would turn Israel into a fanatical religious state

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Author: Lieberman's chum (---.proxy.aol.com)
Date: 07-30-01 00:10

Qadi:
1. Tell us, what is your REAL fear?
2. How do you define "fundamentalist"?
3. Do you really think there's a "threat"?
3. Why do you care what happens in Israel, since you don't live there?

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software test

Author: InterfaithFamily.com editor (---.ne.mediaone.net)
Date: 09-13-01 11:46

ignore this posting--just testing software

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Ignore, this is just a test.

Author: IFF editor (---.ne.mediaone.net)
Date: 12-18-01 10:52

Ignore, this is just a test.

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could u help

Author: 2 (---.pool.dircon.co.uk)
Date: 01-12-02 07:51

"Explain the differences in origin between the Tenack and the Talmud"

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Author: Helper (---.proxy.aol.com)
Date: 01-13-02 13:56

Do you mean Teaneck, New Jersey, or Tanach? :-)
Try http://www.jewfaq.org/toc.htm for your basic Jewish questions.

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test of software

Author: Ronnie (---.proxy.aol.com)
Date: 02-14-02 11:42

ignore

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Lieberman and Intermarriage - Page 1

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