Longterm Interfaith Relationships - Page 7

Page 7

Next >

This site

Author: df (150.231.8.---)
Date: 11-29-01 19:22

I have spent some time over the past several days reviewing this entire discussion and as a recently intermarried Jewish male, I have found very little useful information, altho' many of you appear to be enjoying yourself. I'm not sure if other intermarrieds review this site and decide not to post or that they just don't visit this site at all. I'd be much more interested to learn how other people have dealt with the inevitable issues that arise in an intermarried relationship on the subject of children, holidays, in-laws, etc than general discussion on whether one should intermarry at all. I spent a long time considering my decision and discussed it with my parents, my fiancee, and her parents. Despite excellent communication there are still many adjustments to make and I find I'll have to look elsewhere to get help with these.

^ top

Author: Bryce (---.proxy.aol.com)
Date: 11-29-01 23:19

Mina,
Thank you for the mussar. I needed that. -- Bryce

^ top

Author: IN ALL FAIRNESS (---.proxy.aol.com)
Date: 12-02-01 20:53

You are right to look elsewhere for confort and advise in your interfaith marriage, because this is not an interfaith web as it's title states. It's a Convert Site, not that there is anything wrong with Convert groups, be it Jewish or Christain. The wrong is in hiding the true purpose behind the title INTERFAITH.

^ top

our site

Author: Ed Case (---.ne.mediaone.net)
Date: 12-02-01 21:08

InterfaithFamily.com is not a "convert" site. We make it clear, including in the "About IFF" section, that our mission is to encourage Jewish choices. We do not seek to convert people; we think conversion is wonderful for those who chose it, but we think that interfaith families who are interested in engaging in Jewish life should be welcomed just as they are, without requiring or heavily promoting conversion.

I hope that df's comment was not that the site is not "neutral" about the choices that interfaith families make, but rather was a statement, which many people have also made privately, that our discussion boards tend to be "kidnapped" by people who want to discourage intermarriage, driving away people who are looking for advice and suggestions from others like them about how to address the situations that interfaith families face. We hope that df and others like him or her will come back and make these boards what they are supposed to be.

^ top

this website

Author: Susan (---.as7.nwbl0.wi.voyager.net)
Date: 12-03-01 12:12

To the people who think this website has an anti-Christian bias:

This website is brought to you by the people at "Jewish Family and Life" who believe that intermarriage is not necessarily hazardous to Jewish survival. I think the editors want to encourage Jews who intermarry to stay connected to the Jewish community and religion (and on a certain level to demonstrate the success of their efforts to the rest of the Jewish community). As "Benjamin" so eloquently wrote on the "December Dilemma" page, many intermarried couples do not try to raise their children as Jews. In fact, most do not. For people who want to find intermarriage websites which come from a neutral or 50/50 perspective, or from a Christian perspective, those exist out there. The editors here are doing a sort of a tightrope act, because they have to deal with disagreement from both sides. First there are people like me, who try to encourage people to delve more deeply into what Judaism has to offer. How ironic that now people are accusing them of "prejudice" for belonging to the small minority which wants to keep Judaism alive.

^ top

Author: Karen (---.rasserver.net)
Date: 12-11-01 21:15

It gives me mixed emotions to write this story. In my case my ex-husband threatened to teach Christian beliefs to my son if I ever left him. During the marriage, after his religious revolution, he erred on being not too dominating with his new religion.

It is very important to understand the only reason I agreed to marry my ex-husband was that he promised, before we got married, that he would allow me to raise our children as Jews (in all meanings of the word). He agreed.

Well, fast forward to the custody battle. Religion became an issue. He participated in the circumcision of my son and understood the religion. These facts are very important, because the judge in my court case ruled based on these facts (and especially on the verbal promise) that my son's father was not to take him to any of his religious activities, to a church, prayer group, teach his religion, etc. He also is to serve no pork or shellfish to my son (and when my son is older, no meat and milk). I wasn't able to enforce the kosher meat or house rule. At least, he is not to say anything bad about Judaism to my son, but is to support my son's Judaism by not insulting it and allowing my son to practice it. He can only explain to my son his religious beliefs but not enforce them upon my son. This is an extremely favorable ruling, which others may need to know about.

However, I have learned my lesson. Judaism is my priority (I must not have had it high on the list, since I married a non-Jew -- I realize that now). Now that I am meeting people again, I will only meet Jewish men, all others are out of the picture completely. I feel I have saved my son's life. He goes to the JCC and we attend children's Shabbat services. And we are Jews inside and out. I always have been my whole life. To me it is who I am, what I do, how I think. I am so proud to be Jewish.

I thank you for reading this note.

^ top

To Karen

Author: Shalom (---.ml.com)
Date: 12-12-01 02:07

Thank you for sharing your story. Have a joyous Channukah with your child!

(I hope that this post won't be purged for being too insulting or exclusionary as several others have been)

Shalom

^ top

To Karen and others

Author: William Rothstein (---.rasserver.net)
Date: 12-12-01 23:19

I feel for what Karen went through and can relate very well. You see, I just left my Christian wife whom I loved very much. Like Karen, I didn't hold my Judaism high on my list of priorities as evidenced by the fact that I chose to marry a non-Jew. In my soon-to-be ex wife's defense, she did attend shul with me but insisted that we go only on a limited basis. I was able to tolerate this for years. However, like many people, I grew discontent with a life that wasn't infused with the meaning and spirituality that Judaism has to offer. I consider it now fortunate that we were not able to have children (due to infertility) so that our mutual suffering over the separation and divorce was confined to us and not to children.
It is a very hard thing to leave a commited relationship that took years to build. I admire the courage it took for Karen to be so commited to her Judaism; it will be a true friend and rock for you as it is for me and so many others.

^ top

Finally the Courage to Say Something

Author: treehuggrl (65.82.24.---)
Date: 12-14-01 15:38

I've been reading posts on InterfaithFamily.com for nearly a year now and finally have mustered enough courage to share some of my interfaith experiences as well as frustrations with this website and the self-appointed troika - Susan, Bryce, and Benjamin - of all things Jewish.

First, let me tell you a little about myself and my relationship. I am a non-Jewish, non-Christian (raised Episcopalian, and spiritually Buddhist) woman married to a Reform Jewish (raised Conservative) man. We've been together a total of 11 years, married for three with no children (yet). We agreed when we married to raise our children Jewish and celebrate Jewish holidays. We recently joined a Reform temple (the Rabbi is a distant relative of my husband). In addition, I sing in the temple choir and am taking an Intro to Judaism class, taught jointly by our rabbi and the rabbi from the Conservative synogogue.

We're basically happy with this arrangement and have negotiated our interfaith (more accurately stated as interheritage since our beliefs about and faith in G_d are the same) with few difficulties. We attend services regularly and observe high holy days and Passover. At the holiday season, we don't erect an X-mas tree but decorate the house with boughs and other greenery (in homage to my late mother and my family traditions), we give to charity instead of giving gifts, we light the menorah, and attend holiday get-togethers (of both traditions) with friends and family.

I have been contemplating converting to Judaism ever since we got married but only seriously since joining our temple. The members (among them Jews-by-birth, Jews-by-choice, or non-Jews) are welcoming and tolerant of diversity. No one is pressuring me to convert. They accept me for who I am and allow me to experience Judaism at my own pace (and on my own terms) - during services, at celebrations, through study, and through commeraderie.

This experience is in direct contrast with the self-righteous "Be Orthodox or Be Damned" opinions of Susan, Bryce, and Benjamin that dominate these discussion boards. Reading their diatribes against not only inter-marriage, but against liberal Judaism, it's a wonder that any non-Jewish spouse interested in Judaism would choose to convert. My husband also disavows the vitriol and hegemony exacted on Reform Jews and the non-Jews who love them by these right-wing, religious zealots. He says if all Judaism were aligned with this kind of orthodoxy then even he wouldn't be Jewish.

Despite the relative ease which my husband and I have segued into our local Jewish community, I still have many questions about Judaism, conversion, and my own beliefs. But I will not be seeking answers to these questions from InterfaithFamily.com. I think the hijacking of this site by extremists has done a great disservice to those interfaith couples/families also seeking guidance and support but who have not yet found a compatible Jewish community with which to affliliate.

^ top

Encouragement (I hope!) for treehuggr1

Author: Benjamin (---.rasserver.net)
Date: 12-15-01 23:18

To "treehuggr1",

I think you are absolutely right that people experience Judaism (and life for that matter) at their own pace and on their own terms. And I think it's great that you and your husband have an arrangement that not only works for you, but that you find meaningful and fulfilling. And I think it's wonderful that you have some interest in Judaism and have found a Reform temple that is accepting and provides a real sense of community.

I should tell you that I don't think all intermarriages are doomed for failure, or that all children of intermarriages are spiritually confused. I've experienced enough to the contrary to know that one cannot speak in absolutes about these things. When I post here, I am mostly speaking to trends among the intermarried that have been and continue to be well documented. I don't think there is anything wrong with pointing that out to the many visitors to this site who are not yet in but are contemplating intermarriage. It's not at all to say that their intermarriage won't work out, or is somehow doomed to failure, but just that there are greater complexities that shouldn't be ignored because they sometimes have tragic results for the spouses or the children. Personal and direct experience with those kinds of complexities as well as misfortunes have been posted at length on this site, and by many others than simply Susan, Bryce or me. I think true awareness of potential pitfalls along the way can help a lot in avoiding them, whether one is in an intermarriage or not.

Again, I completely agree with you that everyone has to find what is spiritually most meaningful for them. In fact, I think pluralism is a wonderful thing and the world would be a pretty dreary place without it. At the same time, that does not mean that I or anyone else has to or should accept every single viewpoint as equally valid. Pluralism, unlike relativism, means that it is ok to have an opinion, it is ok to disagree. It is even ok to say that, although you respect someone else's right to their view, after careful consideration you think they are wrong. Doing so does not automatically make one a right wing fanatic. The Reform movement certainly has strong opinions about certain things, and certainly disagrees with both the Orthodox and the Conservative on many points. Their disagreement does not automatically make them intolerant or fanatic.

I should also mention that when I post here, I am posting as someone who has both intermarried and grew up in the Reform movement. In fact, until a little over two years ago I would have categorized myself unambiguously as a Reform Jew. My movement away from Reform Judaism and my thoughts about intermarriage are both borne of long and careful consideration and significant personal experience. So it's not a matter of simply getting on my soapbox; I am speaking as much from my own life experiences as from any observations of others.

In my own experience, I have found that liberal Jews are just as negative about traditional Jews, if not moreso, than the reverse. I have also found many many Reform Jews who harbor negative impressions of the Orthodox have never known any Orthodox Jews very well (this would have described me until a few years ago-I am not Orthodox by the way, at least not yet; again, I agree that we all move at our own pace). In other words, they have never had an opportunity for dialogue with the people they disagree with and resent. So assumptions and stereotypes inevitably develop. As you and your husband pursue your spiritual paths together, wherever that may take you, I sincerely hope you will take the time to speak with and even form relationships with traditional Jews. Not so that you should become like them. But that you may understand them better and they may understand you better. And that should enrich their spiritual paths, and you own; certainly more than if the dialogues and the relationship never take place.

^ top

Author: Bryce (---.proxy.aol.com)
Date: 12-16-01 01:24

I'm impressed with treehuggerl's knowledge of rare words, but I thought we weren't allowing name-calling on this site. (A troika is a threesome of horses, for those who don't know.)

^ top

Name calling

Author: Susan (---.as21.nwbl0.wi.voyager.net)
Date: 12-16-01 13:23

Recently, some people on these boards have made a new commitment to show more respect and open-mindedness and to speak for themselves (what the marriage couselors call "I-statements") and to avoid name-calling and accusations ("You-statements"). Unfortunately, not everyone is agreeing to make the same commitment, because we have seen posts here accusing some of us of the following:

* self-righteous "Be Orthodox or Be Damned" opinions
* diatribes against not only inter-marriage, but against liberal Judaism,
* vitriol and hegemony exacted on Reform Jews and the non-Jews who love them
* b[eing] religious zealots
* orthodoxy
* hijacking of this site by extremists
* great disservice to those interfaith couples/families also seeking guidance and
support

Such inflammatory language does not facilitate communication. Could we all just agree, please, to refrain from inaccurate, unfair, and personal attacks?

Bryce:

A troika can also be a triumvirate, a government or group of three persons. In fairness to treehuggrl, I don't think she also meant to accuse us of being horses <I> as well as </i> "vitriolic extremists"!

^ top

Author: IN ALL FAIRNESS (---.proxy.aol.com)
Date: 12-17-01 20:34

After realizing that some of my postings were purge it confirmed to me that what I said was the truth which struck a nerve in those who are not willing to give even the slightest bit in their thinking even though when confronted and realizing they are wrong.Have the confrontation disappear and we can go on thinking and doing as we please. I hope that is not what the editors mean to convey.

-------------------------------
There is not much more detestable than Religous fanaticism, no matter which religion it may be. It breeds prejudice and contempt and is of no good to any of us. We of interfaith families should not allow our children to be a part of any one sided fanatical views.Our children should not be taught that it is wrong to hear and understand both religions in their families.If our children are going to grow up as Jews,let it be because this is what they want after hearing and learning about the religion.If they learn about the Christain religion as well, this won't make them Christain as so many Jews fear. It will just give them a closure on their roots. They will learn respect by seeing that their parents love and respect each other enough to share in others backrounds. If we think this will make our children Christain, then we can not possible have much trust in what we beleive is true. KAREN: Do you really think that God is going to think your a better person by alienateing your son from husband because he wants to bond with his son? Explaining your religion to your child is a way of bonding.

^ top

To- In all Fairness

Author: Shalom (---.ml.com)
Date: 12-17-01 21:33

In all- "Our children should not be taught that it is wrong to hear and understand both religions in their families.If our children are going to grow up as Jews,let it be because this is what they want after hearing and learning about the religion.If they learn about the Christain religion as well, this won't make them Christain as so many Jews fear."

SHALOM- Do you disagree with the notion that children are less sophisticated than adults, and so generally need to be given unequivocal messages so as to avoid confusion? Isn't it appropriate to begin discussing the subtleties of morality and making choices as they grow older and more mature?

Additionally, if an intermarried couple celebrates both religions, do you think it unreasonable to suspect that the child will become confused, and perhaps even conflicted because they might fear choosing one parent over another?

After all, bottom line, either Jesus was the Messiah and Son of G-d, and is the only way to salvation, or not. If one parent celebrates Hannukah and Passover, and the other Christmas and Easter, can we really expect a child to take either seriously as they get older? Wouldn't *their* interests be better served by celebrating one or the other?

In all- It will just give them a closure on their roots.

SHALOM- What do you mean by 'a closure'?

In all- "They will learn respect by seeing that their parents love and respect each other enough to share in others backrounds. If we think this will make our children Christain, then we can not possible have much trust in what we beleive is true."

SHALOM- I certainly agree with that statement. Parents are the most important role models in a child's life, and I agree that exposure to Christian practices will not 'make' the kids Christian. However, as noted above, I think that it is very important that kids get consistent and unequivocal messages when they are young. Among other reasons, because most kids feel the need to test their boundaries, and to focus on inconsistencies. For that reason, it seems to me that the best interests of the child is to be raised in one tradition or another. The time to learn about the other parts of their family heritage is when they get older.

As an aside, that's one reason that the first time my kids asked me if there really was a tooth fairy, I said that I was the tooth fairy. I didn't want to put myself in the position of lying to them, especially since I knew that they'd learn soon enough that there really is no other tooth fairy. My credibility with them is far more important to me than maintaining that bit of their naivete.

Best Wishes,
Shalom

^ top

Re: Benjamin

Author: treehuggrl (65.82.24.---)
Date: 12-18-01 11:12

Thank you Benjamin for your measured and thoughtful reply to my message. Admittedly, my comments were not as dispassionate as yours, but in some sense I think we agree more than we disagree. Pluralism is indeed important in maintaining a diverse and tolerant world. What has caused me so much consternation is the lack of pluralism on this forum. I can’t really understand why traditionalists, who are obviously antagonistic to the concept of intermarriage, would want to devote so much of their time to a forum established to provide support and guidance to the intermarried. I agree that couple contemplating intermarriage should give serious consideration to their decision and realistic discussions addressing the pitfalls are useful. Thanks to all who provide a reality check.

What I object to, however, is the attempt by some to push further, to prescribe how interfaith couples should worship, celebrate holidays, raise kids, etc. Note the use of the word “should”. Sure, there is a traditional way to do all these things that has validity for many people. And anyone contemplating raising their kids to be Jews or converting to Judaism “could” follow that path. But, as you know, there are as many opinions on being Jewish as there are Jews, and I feel the alternative approaches do not get the same face time on this forum as the traditional ones. Occasionally a secular Jew or Reform Jew will stumble into the forum and offer some insights, but will dare not return once s/he has been lectured to about why s/he and his/her lifestyle is not really Jewish. The conversations that take place between the few non-traditionalists that remain and the traditionalist gatekeepers of the forum resemble the WWF more than honest dialogue about the full range of options for living a Jewish life.

In closing, I really like and appreciate the mission of this website. I’ve read many of the articles and find them helpful and often reassuring. It would certainly enhance my experience, however, if the forum were more representative and tolerant of the diversity that Judaism encompasses. I’d like to be able to post questions about my own experience and feel secure that the legitimacy of my approach and beliefs will not be attacked. My husband, kids, and I (assuming I convert) will not try to keep all 613 commandments, we’ll never empty our house of leaven during Pesach, we may skip lighting Shabbat candles, we may forego services but once a month, yet we will still be Jewish by our standards, the standards of our congregation, and the standards of millions of other Jews around the world.

I’m sorry if my earlier remarks offended anyone. Shalom.

^ top

Author: Bryce (---.mpowercom.net)
Date: 12-18-01 11:38

WWF -- That's the wrestingling federation and not the wildlife fund, right? :-)

Treehuggerl "What has caused me so much consternation is the lack of pluralism on this forum."

I'd suggest that the more arguing you find on this site, the more evidence of pluralism.

"...we’ll never empty our house of leaven during Pesach..."

Since you are an openminded person, I might suggest that this confident statement of yours is premature.

^ top

Never Say Never

Author: treehuggrl (65.82.24.---)
Date: 12-18-01 13:04

Okay, there is a chance (when pigs become kosher possibly) that we'll rid our house of chametz, but I wouldn't hold your breath. :-) Since I live on rice and beans(don't eat meat or dairy) it would be kinda impractical to throw it all out once a year. Plus, I'd starve. (No additional commentary needed, thank you.)

On a more serious note, I don't necessarily view argumentation as pluralism. Yes, one would assume that when there is disagreement, there is diversity of viewpoints. What I have read on this forum, however, resembles more of an effort to discredit non-traditional viewpoints rather than allow them equal air time. Usually some unsuspecting person will post an innocent comment only to have three (even four) dissenters at the ready to trash it. This tends to discourage non-traditionalists from speaking up. Why can't people just say, "IMHO..." or "this what Orthodoxy says about...but others (legitimately) believe differently," instead of claiming absolutism. Think about it, what kind of secular or Reform Jews (or Jewish newbies for the matter) would want to subject themselves to a tirade about why they're not legit because their father was Jewish but their mother wasn't even though they were raised Jewish and had a bar mitzvah? Or their father was Jewish but their mother wasn't because she didn't go the mikvah when she converted? Or any of the other minutiae (IMHO) that gets talked to death on this forum?

Pluralism isn't about policing "wrong" or "misguided" opinions. It's about being true to your own beliefs and having the freedom to share (not impose) them with others.

^ top

Author: Bryce (---.mpowercom.net)
Date: 12-18-01 13:58

I believe that all (or at least almost all) of my arguments against others' opinions are trying to find fault with what I consider unwise ideas, incorrect history, or to discredit logically-faulty thinking -- not to "discredit non-traditional viewpoints."

You're absolutely right about how many Jews feel when the "patrilineal descent" argument is discussed. It's an issue that was never discussed until the early 1980's. If approached delicately, a Jew who believes in the traditional matrilineal descent approach can possibly express his view (which he'd probably claim is "Judaism's view") in a manner which will not offend a patrilineal descent proponent. It takes delicacy, and it also takes a resolve by the latter not to have a knee-jerk reaction. It is understandable, given that he often feels that his identity seems to be under attack. And few things are more important than identity.

IMHO, what you call Jewish "minutiae" are not minutiae at all. I say that respectfully.

"Pluralism isn't about policing "wrong" or "misguided" opinions. It's about being true to your own beliefs and having the freedom to share (not impose) them with others." --> And thank God I have the freedom to share mine on this site. (I would need a cattle-prod in order to *impose* my views :-) )

Rice and beans, huh? Hmmm, you might want to go Sephardic (said tongue-in-cheek.)

^ top

To Treehuggr

Author: Shalom (---.ml.com)
Date: 12-18-01 21:39

T- "...Usually some unsuspecting person will post an innocent comment only to have three (even four) dissenters at the ready to trash it. This tends to discourage non-traditionalists from speaking up."

SHALOM- It seems to me that few if any of the posts by 'Traditionalists' have been insulting or demeaning. It seems to me that often someone expresses an opinion that was made without much research into Judaism or history, and then resents the fact that the people who disagree with it can cite sources and a well developed rationale.

T- "Why can't people just say, "IMHO..." or "this what Orthodoxy says about...but others (legitimately) believe differently," instead of claiming absolutism."

SHALOM- I agree with the point that people should try to be polite and considerate in how they express themselves. However, is it reasonable to expect that 'Orthodox' Jews abandon the 3300 year belief that G-d wrote the Torah in order to accomodate those who disagree?

In other words, you must know that the core of our belief has been that the reason for our existence is to serve G-d and fulfill the covenant that G-d made with Avraham, Yitzchak and Ya'akov, and described in the Torah *that He wrote*. That being the case, how can you expect us to view the belief that G-d did *not* write the Torah as a *legitimate expression* of Judaism?

Don't we have the right to hold and express our beliefs, also?

T- "Think about it, what kind of secular or Reform Jews (or Jewish newbies for the matter) would want to subject themselves to a tirade about why they're not legit because their father was Jewish but their mother wasn't even though they were raised Jewish and had a bar mitzvah?..."

SHALOM- I'm sure that no one wants to be subjected to a tirade--nor should they be. But is an opinion that you dislike (like mine?) automatically a tirade?

T- "Pluralism isn't about policing "wrong" or "misguided" opinions. It's about being true to your own beliefs and having the freedom to share (not impose) them with others."

SHALOM- That's a pretty good definition of pluralism. Using it, don't 'Traditional' Jews have the right to be true to our beliefs and share them as well? After all, since our opinions do not impact what Reform or other Non-Orthodox Rabbis or temples do, we cannot impose our views on others even if we wanted to.

Please realize that our views regarding the desirability of intermarriage are not personal judgements about the people involved. Tree, you come off as an intelligent, thoughtful person, and you may well have considered the many religious and social aspects to intermarriage and religious practice. However, I believe that many of the people who are considering it have not thought it out, and would benefit from hearing the Traditional point of view. Perhaps Karen and William Rothstein would have benefited from hearing this point of view before they got married.

Best Wishes,
Shalom

^ top

Yes and No

Author: treehuggrl (65.82.24.---)
Date: 12-19-01 11:57

Shalom - I don't have a problem with anyone sharing their beliefs openly as long as the sharing doesn't involve inflamatory statements and rebukes. As I said in my previous post, the purpose of this forum should not be to police viewpoints (however "ill-informed" and in need of correction you might deem them) that stray from orthodoxy.

Are you implying that because you can cite historical and biblical references that support your viewpoint, that grants you more authority to judge someone else's beliefs? I would counter that for every particular position you hold there is a non-traditional "authority" who could provide a convincing case (complete with historical and biblical references) to challenge your view.

It has been my contention from the beginning that while the traditional authoritative perspective is amply represented on this forum, the others are not. The many non-Jews who seek out this site for information or guidance thus only receive one side of the story -- presented as the only true and legitimate approach. Too often the hostility that exists between traditionalists and non-traditionalists in the larger Jewish community plays itself out (whether intentionally or unintentionally) in the responses to questions and comments posted on this forum regardless of whether the questions or comments are themselves benign.

All I'm asking is why people can't just share their experiences with one another without resorting to didactics and posturing? In my mind, the only absolute truth about Judaism its diversity - racial, ethnic, political as well as religious perspective. It is a shame for everyone involved that this diversity is not better represented on this forum.

^ top

To Treehuggr

Author: Shalom (---.ml.com)
Date: 12-19-01 22:26

T- "Shalom - I don't have a problem with anyone sharing their beliefs openly as long as the sharing doesn't involve inflamatory statements and rebukes."

SHALOM- I agree.

T- "... the purpose of this forum should not be to police viewpoints (however "ill-informed" and in need of correction you might deem them) that stray from orthodoxy."

SHALOM- Sounds good. The purpose also should not be to berate those who do hold 'Orthodox' or 'Traditional' views--which also happens.

T- "Are you implying that because you can cite historical and biblical references that support your viewpoint, that grants you more authority to judge someone else's beliefs?"

SHALOM- Not at all. If you care to reread my post, I wrote that "often someone expresses an opinion that was made without much research into Judaism or history, and then resents the fact that the people who disagree with it can cite sources and a well developed rationale."

In other words, people without much knowledge of Judaism often seem to resent the fact that 'Orthodox' people can cite sources and reasons, while they cannot. I recognize that some secular or Reform Jews are knowledgeable, and can explain their positions intelligently. However, in my experience, most secular Jews are ignorant of Jewish history and Torah, and base their opinions on their preconceived ideas and little else, and that's sad. I think that these issues deserve our fullest attention.

T- "I would counter that for every particular position you hold there is a non-traditional "authority" who could provide a convincing case (complete with historical and biblical references) to challenge your view."

SHALOM- Could be. I just wish that more people who held these non-traditional opinions did so as a result of studying these topics and really thinking about them. Of all the secular Jews I've met and known, not too many did.

T- "It has been my contention from the beginning that while the traditional authoritative perspective is amply represented on this forum, the others are not. The many non-Jews who seek out this site for information or guidance thus only receive one side of the story -- presented as the only true and legitimate approach. Too often the hostility that exists between traditionalists and non-traditionalists in the larger Jewish community plays itself out (whether intentionally or unintentionally) in the responses to questions and comments posted on this forum regardless of whether the questions or comments are themselves benign.

SHALOM- Then those who hold these 'non-Traditional' opinions should post their feelings and beliefs, and let's let the 'marketplace of ideas' play itself out. And certainly, let's please try to treat each other with respect. After all, (from my perspective) we're all created in the image of G-d.

Best Wishes,
Shalom

^ top

Shalom

Author: IN ALL FAIRNESS (---.proxy.aol.com)
Date: 12-19-01 22:55

We both agree that parents are the most important role models for their children. Relationships with extended family members such as grandparents, aunts, uncles and cousins is also a very important bonding factor in our child's life. It is unfair to our children if we do not allow them to bond with both families.Learning about and respecting our families religions is an important bonding factor. It is important for interfaith parents, especially those where both parents follow their seperate religions to realize that their children will inevitably view and even follow and practice religion somewhat differenty than either parent. It is possible for a child to be taught about the culture and religion of Judaism, explaining the Torah to them, while also explaining to them what part Jesus plays in the Christain religion .He isn't the only way to salvation as fanatical Evangelists preach. Let me put my finger on the main problem here, that being explaining Jesus. Is he or isn't he the Messiah? There is a way of explaining this with out offending our Jewish beliefs as well as Christain beliefs. Jesus can be explained as the human form Christains believe God took in order to reach us. He was the covering or casing God used to look familiar to us so he could bond with us. He could have been known as any other name, but this is the name Christains believe God chose. Jesus and the Virgin Birth as well our beleif in Moses parting the sea and the eight days the lamp burned at Hannukah can all be explained as what both Jews and Christains believe are Acts of God. Let us not allow our own fears that our children will not be exactly as we are stop us from allowing our children to grow up knowing loving bonding and respecting all members of their families. This will make Religion a positive rather than a negative part of their lives. Life is so short. Lets learn to live together in harmony.

^ top

Two entirely different languages

Author: Susan (---.as21.nwbl0.wi.voyager.net)
Date: 12-19-01 23:21

treehuggrl:

I appreciate your more civil tone, and I accept your apology. I also find it ironic that you would characterize Benjamin, Bryce and me as “gatekeepers.” It would seem to me that the editor is the real gatekeeper. That gentleman is toward the most liberal end of the Reform spectrum (not by my own definition, but measured against the statements and writings of the Reform movement's own leadership) and those of us who try to defend traditional Judaism on this site have to be very careful in what we write to avoid his censorship.

It occurs to me that what we have here is a misunderstanding between two very different world views. Perhaps Reform Jews believe that they are free to believe what they want, to interpret the Torah for themselves, and to decide how to behave, based on their own consciences. On the other hand, Orthodox Jews may recognize that one is free to believe as one will, but they will all agree that the Torah, with its 613 commandments, is the authoritative word of God and spells out the behavior that God requires of all Jews (not all people, just all Jews). Where they have problems with the commandments (and we all do), they will not rely on their own conscience or interpretation for guidance, but on the scholarship of recognized Orthodox rabbinical authorities. Despite a few minor variations, based on such factors as geography, there is a remarkable consistency among traditional Jews about what is correct practice, according to the Torah, and what is not. These people are not attempting to speak your language and doing it wrong; they are speaking an entirely different language than you are.

My own argument is not with liberal Jews per se, but with anyone who makes inaccurate statements about Judaism or tries to misrepresent it. Traditional Judaism does not permit Jews to make decisions on the basis of personal preference, but it really is full of commandments, obligations, and value judgments. This was something that ALL Jews, whatever other differences they might have had, agreed upon for
thousands of years, up until less than two centuries years ago. If someone writes “I was born Jewish, but I choose not to obey the Jewish dietary laws” or “I belong to a Reform congregation, and most of us pretty much disregard those dietary laws” that is that person’s right, and I accept his or her right to live that way. However, if someone tries to claim “According to the Jewish dietary laws, my ham and cheese sandwich is just as permissible as your kosher chicken” or “The Jewish religion doesn’t really have any dietary laws,” then yes, I will dispute that.

If it sounds as if I’m trying to push Orthodoxy, please remember that this is a site for
people want help raising children Jewishly. When they ask me for help or ideas, which happens more often than you may realize, I will give them as much information as I can. For example, if someone wants to know about Jewish holidays, I will not limit my answer to Yom Kippur, Chanuka, and Passover; I will give them a comprehensive answer, including Shabbat, Sukkot, Simchat Torah, Purim, Shavuot, and all the others. This doesn’t mean I’m an intolerant fanatical reactionary; it just means I believe in giving a thorough answer to a question. What they choose to do with it is their business. As a former teacher, I don’t think it’s responsible or ethical to give only partial information to a person who really wants to know. I suspect that anyone who would be satisfied with a simple “Oh, just go do whatever feels right for you” answer would not bother coming to this website asking a question.

^ top

Author: Bryce (---.proxy.aol.com)
Date: 12-20-01 00:11

In all fairness, "IN ALL FAIRNESS" should not castigate those Christians -- calling them fanatic Evangelicals -- who believe what their bible tells them: "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." (John 14:6)

^ top

Author: Bryce (---.proxy.aol.com)
Date: 12-20-01 00:15

Hmmmm, maybe my last email reveals the "real problem", as "IN ALL FAIRNESS" puts it -- and not merely the identity of Jesus.

(Susan, if "troika" is a threesome, what's the fancy name for a foursome? :-) )

^ top

To In all fairness

Author: Shalom (---.ml.com)
Date: 12-20-01 02:00

In all- "...Relationships with extended family members such as grandparents, aunts, uncles and cousins is also a very important bonding factor in our child's life. It is unfair to our children if we do not allow them to bond with both families."

SHALOM- I agree that if the extended family is supportive of how a family raises the children, bonding can be very beneficial. However, wouldn't it also be true that if the extended family tried to undermine the parent's choices, the bonding could be harmful?

In all- "Learning about and respecting our families religions is an important bonding factor."

SHALOM- Yes, but wouldn't you agree that 'learning about' another religion is very different from celebrating their holidays with them (or on your own, for that matter)?

In all- "It is possible for a child to be taught about the culture and religion of Judaism, explaining the Torah to them, while also explaining to them what part Jesus plays in the Christain religion."

SHALOM- That's true. But I don't think that many people are concerned about how to explain the Christian religion to their kids. It seems to me that the more pressing question is whether or not the child should go to a family Christmas party, and decorate the tree. Should they go to church, take part in Easter services, and develop an *identification with* (as opposed to an understanding of) Christianity or any other religion?

In my opinion, the answer is clearly *no*. By participating in the celebrations of another religion, especially if it is the religion of one parent and their extended family, the child is being given an inconsistent message about **what their beliefs are**. This is very different from saying "grandma and grandpa are Christians, and they believe in Jesus, and part of that is celebrating Christmas and Easter. They believe x, y and z, but we don't, because we believe in the Torah. But we still love them and can get together and have fun when it's not Christmas or another Christian holiday".

In all- "Let us not allow our own fears that our children will not be exactly as we are stop us from allowing our children to grow up knowing loving bonding and respecting all members of their families."

SHALOM- The issue isn't whether or not the children will be exactly as we are. The issue is whether or not we give them a consistent and unequivocal message or not.

In all- "Life is so short. Lets learn to live together in harmony."

SHALOM- Amen.

Best Wishes,
Shalom

^ top

bryce

Author: cm (207.106.229.---)
Date: 12-21-01 10:29

There are a lot of other ways of interpreting John 14:6 than just the way conservative evangelicals do. I think for all that 'fanatic' is excessive, IN ALL FAIRNESS makes a valid point that all Christian thought and doctrine should not be simply characterized in terms of the beliefs of this small (but vocal) group of Christians who are certainly considered extremists by many mainline and traditional Christians.

^ top

Author: bryce (---.mpowercom.net)
Date: 12-21-01 14:10

There are a very large number of conservative NON-evangelicals who still believe in the traditional message of that John verse, so the use of the expression "*small* group of Christians" isn't exactly accurate.

^ top

susan

Author: fran (---.proxy.aol.com)
Date: 12-21-01 23:57

I have been looking in on this site for some time now. There are some postings I agree with and some I don't. But not until now Have I felt the need to reply. You mentioned that Orthodox Jews believe "the Torah with its 613 commandments is the authoritative word of God and spells out the behavior that God requires of all Jews (not all people just all Jews.) Does that mean that God favors one group of his children more than the rest?. Do you really believe that God would think in such a way? If that is so there must be more than one God, because I for one and I'm sure I don't stand alone, could never believe in a God who had favoritism.

^ top

Shalom

Author: IN ALL FAIRNESS (---.proxy.aol.com)
Date: 12-22-01 00:38

Can I ask you to imagine yourself in the following fictional situation. One that a large percentage of the time really occurs. You are a young jewish man who falls in love with a young Christain women. After dating for a time, realizing that she follow her religion, while not an extremist she does practice the cultures and traditions of holidays such as Christmas, Ash Wednesday,Palm Sunday, Good Friday and Easter.You also realize that she would want her children to participate in these holidays as well. Loving her so much,you concent to raise your children as Christains after you marry, despite you own beliefs in Judaism. Once the child is born, you find that this causes you to feel seperated from your own child. Knowing that your child and you will never be able to spend Religious Holiday time with your family. Your parents, aunts, uncles. Your child will not be able to celebrate Hannukah with his cousins. Wouldn't it make you feel better, more connected if your child was able to celebrate your holidays as well? This situation can be reversed and the feelings would be the same. Raising your child limited to one sided religious knowledge and celebration will only cause both pain and alienation for him and yourself. Most likely,later on it will also cause your divorce.

^ top

In all Fairness

Author: Shalom (---.ewndsr1.nj.home.com)
Date: 12-22-01 22:22

In all- "Can I ask you to imagine yourself in the following fictional situation. One that a large percentage of the time really occurs. You are a young jewish man who falls in love with a young Christain women...."

SHALOM- The responsible, intelligent, and right thing to do is to limit contact if it's impossible to cut it off at the first glimmer of this situation. Just like if you began to feel this way about a married person. I don't believe that there is only one true love for a person.

In all- " After dating for a time, realizing that she follow her religion, while not an extremist she does practice the cultures and traditions of holidays...You also realize that she would want her children to participate in these holidays as well. Loving her so much,you concent to raise your children as Christains after you marry, despite you own beliefs in Judaism."

SHALOM- Which is exaxctly why it would never happen. I can easily turn your question back to your falling in love with a married person who already has children. Would you allow it to develop and ruin the lives of those poor innocent children, or would you stop it before it developed?

If you can stop it in one instance, then you can stop it in the other.

In all- "Once the child is born, you find that this causes you to feel seperated from your own child. Knowing that your child and you will never be able to spend Religious Holiday time with your family..."

SHALOM- One should live a life of truth, not lies. If I married a gentile, my child would not *be* Jewish, whatever my feelings, so he/she should be raised as a gentile. If the child was Jewish, s/he should be raised Jewish. By combining both one is teaching that *neither* is a true way of life.

Shalom

^ top

SHALOM

Author: IN ALL FAIRNESS (---.proxy.aol.com)
Date: 12-23-01 11:02

You are looking at this as an outsider who had the time to think the situation through before hand. What if you were a young man who was so blinded by his love a women who was so special to him, having so much in common in all other areas that he just didn't pre-think the religion part of the relationship until the situation was on top of him? Do you ruin the lives of the children as well as you own,because of lack of respect for each others religion? One or the other parent being afraid that the child might chose one religion over the other and maybe it will not be their own religion. It is possible that when a child grows up he may not follow the same religion as his parent even if both parents are of the same religion. What can you do if that should happen and it has. Does that mean you have given your child reson to disbelieve your religion? It is possible to teach children about both religions and still have them connect closer with one than the other without feeling that their chosen choice is the one and only correct way. There is a way to show our children to respect other religions and that is to let them know it's not wrong to learn or even join in celebration of another religion if it is a part of their family.

^ top

Looking at it as an insider

Author: Benjamin (---.rasserver.net)
Date: 12-24-01 00:05

In all Fairness,

As someone who has been an "insider" on intermarriage, I would like to offer my perspective. My wife and I have just seen too many adult products of intermarriages who were "raised in both" to have ever considered that option with our child. In our case, our child is being raised (and has been converted) as a Jew. He knows he has relatives who are not Jewish. He knows that most of the world is not Jewish. He knows that many of his neighbors celebrate Christmas and Easter and go to church every Sunday. And he knows that he has his own wonderful celebrations and beliefs. He knows what makes them distinctive as Christians. And he knows what makes him distinctive as a Jew.

Many times, parents quite understandably want to pass on some of their religious self to their child. But a parent has to ask whether this is ultimately for the child's benefit or the parent's own benefit. Adults who are raised in both often choose one as an adult, but usually after a lot of personal struggle that they should never have to endure. In my own experience, I have seen many parents of these children get pretty upset when the child chooses and celebrates only one. They had put off that decision, and they're not happy when the child ultimately makes it for them. The children often feel that, in trying simply to find a spiritual home, they are forced to choose between parents. In contrast, children who are raised unambiguously in one know that that is what both parents want for them spiritually, even if one is not Jewish.

This is not a matter of choosing Judaism over Christianity, but choosing one religion for the home and the children. Although my first choice for my child was Judaism, I would much rather have raised him exclusively as a Christian than trying to give him both, even if there was a "slant" toward one. Admittedly, it would have been difficult for me. But far less difficult than seeing him with a little of each and not feeling 100% comfortable in either.

^ top

Fran's Questions (#271)

Author: Benjamin (---.rasserver.net)
Date: 12-24-01 00:22

Fran,

You ask some very good questions about what Jews traditionally have believed about the Torah and its relationship to all of humanity, questions which require clarification.

Judaism does not believe, as it is so often mistakenly characterized, that Jews are somehow better or favored, etc. One of the foundational principles of Judaism, as is stated in Genesis, is that ALL human beings are created in the image of G-d. Thus, all have the potential to walk in G-d's ways and have a relationship to G-d. Another foundational principle of Judaism, as stated in the Rabbinic writings, is that ALL righteous people have a share in the world to come. In other words, there is no salvational doctrine that requires specific beliefs to make it into Heaven. Judaism begins with the idea that people of all faiths can be righteous in G-d's eyes, depending on their behavior here on earth.

Judaism understands the Torah to have given specific commandments to all of humanity (known as the "Noahide Laws" because they were first given in the Torah to Noah; they contain many of the precepts of the Ten Commandments). There are additional commandments given to the Jewish people (for a total of 613). But these are additional obligations, not additional rights. So the idea of choseness is one of responsibility, not privilege. So while a Jew may be required to do all of these, as far as Judaism is concerned, a non-Jew who observes the Noahide Laws has obtained favor in G-d's eyes. Observance of the 613 commandments is not viewed as a better way to relate to G-d; it is simply one particular path to G-d that is required of Jews. Additionally, the idea of observing all 613 commandments has never been exclusive. If someone not born Jewish wishes to take on these commandments, Judaism does not preclude them from becoming Jewish and taking them on. However, a non-Jew does not need to do so to attain just as much favor in G-d's eyes as a Jew.

You mentioned that Orthodox Jews believe "the Torah with its 613 commandments is the authoritative word of God and spells out the behavior that God requires of all Jews (not all people just all Jews.) Does that mean that God favors one group of his children more than the rest?. Do you really believe that God would think in such a way? If that is so there must be more than one God, because I for one and I'm sure I don't stand alone, could never believe in a God who had favoritism.

^ top

In all fairness

Author: Shalom (---.ml.com)
Date: 12-24-01 21:58

In all- "You are looking at this as an outsider who had the time to think the situation through before hand. What if you were a young man who was so blinded by his love a women who was so special to him, having so much in common in all other areas that he just didn't pre-think the religion part of the relationship until the situation was on top of him?"

SHALOM- I am disappointed that you chose to ignore my point in my past post to you. Please deal with it now, as it is pertinent to this post as well as your earlier one.

To repeat it-- what should one do if one begins to fall in love with someone who is already married with children? Should they allow their feelings to deepen and pursue it, or should they sever the connection?

The 2 differences between humans and animals are that we have souls and they don't, and that we can reason and logic while they operate on instinct alone. We have the ability to choose to act on our impulses, or not. Back when I was single, I only dated Jewish girls because I recognized that many non Jewish girls are attractive, nice, and so on, and I could fall in love without meaning to.

In all- "Do you ruin the lives of the children as well as you own,because of lack of respect for each others religion? One or the other parent being afraid that the child might chose one religion over the other and maybe it will not be their own religion."

SHALOM- Didn't you already choose to ruin their lives when you chose to ignore these issues on the front end? Per Benjamin's post (#275) one can intermarry and still recognize that *the child* is best served by insisting one a single, consistent message. Why do you continue to characterize that decision as 'beinig afraid', instead of acknowledging that it is motivated by love, concern and *responsibility*?

In all- "It is possible that when a child grows up he may not follow the same religion as his parent even if both parents are of the same religion. What can you do if that should happen and it has. Does that mean you have given your child reson to disbelieve your religion?"

SHALOM- It's also possible that your child will (G-d forbid) be killed in a car accident, but even so, you'll certainly do your very best to care for him/her to the best of your ability in the meanwhile. If they are killed in a car accident, does that mean that you did a bad job of raising the child?

In all- "There is a way to show our children to respect other religions and that is to let them know it's not wrong to learn or even join in celebration of another religion if it is a part of their family."

SHALOM- Please explain to me why you insist on joining two separate issues as if they are linked. You continue to link learning about other religions with taking part in their customs or worship, while I have pointed out that one can learn about other religions without taking part in their worship and celebrations. Your practice of ignoring this point gives me the feeling that you are not interested in discussing the issue. Instead, it seems that you are only interested in preaching your point of view.

If I am mistaken in my impression, please address this point, as well as the one I made about the comparability of falling in love with a member of another religion and fallling in love with a married person.

Shalom

^ top

Shalom

Author: IN ALL FAIRNESS (---.proxy.aol.com)
Date: 12-25-01 10:25

You have misunderstood what I was trying to get across or maybe I just wasn't clear enough. It just isn't as clean cut a matter as you seem to think. Sometimes friendships turn into something more. We can not stop socializing with people of other religions for fear of falling in love with them. You can find you have very much in common with a person of a faith different than your own. The way we see and worship God may be the only difference. Surely we may find a mate of the same religion as our own, but what if we don't? Do we never marry? Do we spend our entire life alone? Do you think God would think better of us for this choice?
:
When I mentioned having of children celebrate both religions in their family, I did not mean for them to take part in the sacraments of both religions. What I meant was let us not make them feel that to join in celebrations of the other religion in their family will make them lesser of a person in the eyes of God. There are situations where one partner is less religous or less practicing than there mate is in (his or her) religion yet still insists their child be raised in their birth religion. They may want the child to be a mirror of themselves or they may just be comcerned that this is what is exspected of them by their families. The benefit of the child is not even an issue to these type of people. This does not occur in all Intermarried families but it does in a large enough amount of them for us to try to find a way to resolve the problem without causing the children involved to sence that their is a religious war going on. In a situation such as this teaching the child the meaning of and respect for both religions is very important.

^ top

to In all fairness

Author: Shalom (---.ml.com)
Date: 12-25-01 21:37

In all- "You have misunderstood what I was trying to get across or maybe I just wasn't clear enough. It just isn't as clean cut a matter as you seem to think. Sometimes
friendships turn into something more. We can not stop socializing with people of other religions for fear of falling in love with them."

SHALOM- And you have *again* ignored my point. If you do so again I will have to conclude that you are not interested in a dialogue; rather, that you are interested in preaching your point of view.

I realize that sometimes feelings develop and one falls in love. My question to you has been (three times now?) what would you do if you began to fall in love with someone who is married with kids? Would you let it run it's course, and ignore the consequences, or would you find a way to end the relationship?

In all- "You can find you have very much in common with a person of a faith different than your own."

SHALOM- True. But that's not what one should base a marriage on.

In all- "The way we see and worship God may be the only difference. Surely we may find a mate of the same religion as our own, but what if we don't? Do we never marry? Do we spend our entire life alone?

SHALOM- I don't find that to be a persuasive argument. Most people meet others who they like, but use some criteria or another to 'filter out' those they decide not to marry (or date, for that matter). *We* decide what 'filter' to use.

I have heard people ask 'is it better to marry a nice gentile or a rotten Jew' and I reject the question as rhetorical nonsense. There are nice gentiles and rotten gentiles, and nice Jews and rotten Jews. Choose one of the nice ones.

In all- "Do you think God would think better of us for this choice?"

SHALOM- Obviously. Since I believe in the Torah, and the Torah tells Jews not to intermarry, it makes sense for me to believe that G-d wants us to make that choice.
Of course, I realize that someone who does not recognize G-d as the author of the Torah might feel differently about the issue.

In all- "When I mentioned having of children celebrate both religions in their family, I did not mean for them to take part in the sacraments of both religions. What I meant
was let us not make them feel that to join in celebrations of the other religion in their family will make them lesser of a person in the eyes of God."

SHALOM- If you reread my posts you will notice that I have pointed out several times that children need clear, unambiguous messages. Otherwise, they will often concluded that we are not sincere, they will often reject our messages, and they may feel conflicted about the perception that they are choosing one parent over another.

I don't believe that I ever posted anything about being 'lesser of a person in the eyes of G-d". You might also notice that Benjamin also made that same point very eloquently in post #275, but you seem to have ignored that point as well.

Shalom

< Previous

Next >

Getting Married?

Longterm Interfaith Relationships - Page 7

Page 7