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Preparing For Mass - Page 1
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Page 1
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Author: InterfaithFamily.com Editor (---.home.net)
Date: 07-28-00 11:01
What do you think of Jeri Zeder's story about preparing her kids for their Aunt's Catholic wedding and a mass? |
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Author: a catholic (---.lifespan.org)
Date: 08-10-00 15:16
Just to clarify, people were not bowing to the cross at a mass. At the mass, The hosts (wafers) used for communion are believed by Catholics to become in substance the body and blood of Jesus. Any leftover hosts are still considered to now be the body and blood and thus are reverently reserved for a future mass in an ornate container called the tabernacle at the front of the church. When people enter or leave the church they are supposed to genuflect toward the tabernacle as a way of acknowledging/honoring Jesus presence. Genuflection is a bit different than bowing--one bends down on one knee only while slightly bowing the upper body and head.
People geneuflect during the recessional at the end of Mass, because the Mass is officially over once th priest passes you going down the aisle. They are actually supposed to be genuflecting toward the tabernacle as the mass officially ends.
Many non-Catholics attend masses for whatever reason. I wouldnt feel self-conscious about not genuflecting or kneeling or whatever. On the other hand, one does not HAVE to be Catholic to do those things. But, you certainly do have to be Catholic to get communion in a Catholic church (though no one checks ID in line!).
I do appreciate the authors attempt to show respect. It is at least roughly analagous to standing when the Ark is open in a shul. |
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| bowing vs. genuflecting |
Author: Jeri Zeder (---.z208176094.bos-ma.dsl.cnc.net)
Date: 08-11-00 20:48
To "a Catholic:" Thank you for your thoughtful and informative message. You make some valuable distinctions that will help anyone not familiar with Catholic rituals.
I'd like to add that the priest at my sister-in-law's wedding was specifically asking those in the wedding party to "bow to show respect for the cross" (his words), and was clearly satisfied when people bowed from the waist, as a musician might at the end of a performance. He was not requiring the gesture of genuflecting that you describe in your posting. I do not think I would have been comfortable letting my kids genuflect.
I'll probably never know the answer, but I now wonder, based on your explanation, whether the priest called simply for bowing because he knew that there were Jews participating in the ceremony. |
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| bowing,etc. |
Author: a catholic (---.lifespan.org)
Date: 08-16-00 09:28
Yes, Id guess that either 1) you're right---the priest watered things down a bit since he knew not everyone was Catholic. But then again, if he knew specifically that there were alot of Jews, I doubt he would have invited people to bow to the cross---priests are well-aware of such Jewish sensitivities. 2)the priest might have been either liberal and un-Orthodox or undeducated about Catholic doctrine---unfortunately this happens alot these days, as it does with clergy of all religions.
Again, however, the main point, I believe, is that you are to be applauded for your modicum of respect for Catholicism in a Catholic church. Too often, Jews expect or demand this type of respect from Christians (it indeed is due), but are vehement about NOT doing it in return. |
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| respect |
Author: Jeri Zeder (---.z208176094.bos-ma.dsl.cnc.net)
Date: 08-16-00 15:43
Thank you again for your thoughtful comments. I appreciate that you believe I tried to behave respectfully in a Catholic church, but I thought it might be worthwhile to consider your comment that Jews don't always display the kind of respect that they expect of others. I don't know in what context you've seen this, and I'm sorry if it has been your experience.
However, I think it makes sense to make some distinctions between religious politics and family matters. Jews have rather compelling historical (and present day) reasons to feel justified in not showing respect for Catholic or Christian rituals of any kind, and even to demonstrate our feelings in a pointed way. I do not mean that Jews are justified in being disrespectful. I mean that, under certain circumstances, we may want to withhold a demonstration of respect, and we are not wrong for doing so.
On the other hand, I was in a situation of celebrating a joyous occasion with my family. My in-laws are my family, regardless of their religion. My children are their grandchildren, nephews, and cousins. They have been very good to me and my children and there was no way that I was about to let any wrongs of the Catholic establishment interfere with the beauty of that day. That would just let the bad guys win again. |
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| wow |
Author: a catholic (---.lifespan.org)
Date: 08-17-00 09:20
Maybe I started it, but you really just undid most of the respect I had for you. So now you're saying this was just respect for your family? How do past transgressions of INDIVIDUALS against Jews negate all of Christianity? Catholics are the bad guys? Disrespect isnt warranted, but a "pointed demonstration" of anti-Christian feelings is OK? What's the difference?
Why not call your article "putting on a facade for the sake of family peace?" I thought you were finally advocating that Jews go beyond that. Guess not. |
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| respect |
Author: Jeri Zeder (---.z208176094.bos-ma.dsl.cnc.net)
Date: 08-17-00 12:09
I'm afraid I haven't been clear. A display of anti-Christian feelsings is not ok, in fact anti-Christian feelings are not ok. What is ok is protesting anti-Jeiwsh poicies and statements of the Church and other Christian establishments, something like refusing to applaud for a speaker whose views you disagree with, or writing dissenting letters to the editor.
I don't know what you had in mind when you noted that there is often a lack of reciprocity from Jews on the issue of respect, but I wanted to point out that Jews come from a history where the Cross has not exactly been a consistent symbol of love for us. That is the source, at least in part, for what you see as Jewish rigidity. I agree that Jews don't always express that in the most mature and appropriate fashion, but we are only human. I hardly want to be in the position of defending disresptect. I was expressing not a justification, but an explanation. I still, however, believe Jews have a responsibility to protest when it is called for.
As for the bad guy bit: I was flip in my choice of words. I meant that, if I let the anti-Semitism around me influence the way I treat members of my family, my neighbors, friends, or colleagues, then I have let them undermine my decency. That's not ok.
I don't plan to continue this discussion further.
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Author: a catholic (---.lifespan.org)
Date: 08-17-00 12:24
fine not to continue. Here's my last word. Explanation IS justification when not specifically laced with negation. Im afraid you are also not up to date. The Church HAS NO anti-semitic policies. It is quite pro-Jewish. There is no explanation for fighting negative with negative. Your article provided positivity to the interfaith dialogue. I suggest we all continue in that direction, and put history behind us---otherwise you will be creating a new negative history. |
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| J. Zeder |
Author: Kelly (---.kcc.com)
Date: 08-18-00 16:14
>>"What is ok is protesting anti-Jewish poicies and statements of the Church "
Jeri,
Statements of the Church (i.e. showing respect for the cross, in what Christians believe to the the House of the Lord), is NOT and "Anti-Jewish policy". How can you even say that?
True, showing respect for a symbol of Christ is not in accordance with Jewish doctrine, but in no way is it "Anti-Jewish". How can you not understand the difference?
>>"How do past transgressions of INDIVIDUALS against Jews negate all of Christianity? " (a catholic) How can this be any more true? If you can forgive your husband for being a Christian, why not others? Did he personally apologize to you?
Off the track:
Say you are an American. In America, you drive on the right side of the road. Say you go to England. In England, you drive on the left side of the road. If you don't drive on the left side of the road in England, you cause accidents. You can't make special rules for yourself in a foreign country. If you are in capable of driving on the left side of the road, just for the short amount of time you're in England, don't let yourself get in a situation where you are renting a car in England. This is over simplified. |
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| same |
Author: Kelly (---.kcc.com)
Date: 08-18-00 16:21
p.s. I think if your relatives were to know of your true feelings regarding their wedding, they would have thought twice about involving you. |
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Author: a catholic (---.lifespan.org)
Date: 08-21-00 16:54
amen, Kelly. |
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| Principles |
Author: Anon (---.ptc.com)
Date: 08-21-00 22:16
As an a America I wouldn't bow to the King of England why as a Jew should I bow to Jesus? |
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Author: Kelly (---.kcc.com)
Date: 08-22-00 14:43
don't begrudgingly show up at his palace only to make a scene |
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| hey, anon |
Author: a catholic (---.lifespan.org)
Date: 08-23-00 12:58
Of course, as I said before, non-Catholics can feel free to do or not do any of the kneeling, genuflecting,etc involved in the mass. No one will hold it against them if they dont. that wont make a scene. But I agree with Kelly that it would be ridiculous to show up and protest in some way...just dont go. No one says you have to believ in Jesus if you just do not. If you have no faith in his divinity, I would not expect you to treat him as divine. |
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| Protesting |
Author: Anon (---.ptc.com)
Date: 08-23-00 15:09
Most Jews show thier protest to Catholic/Chritian practices by not participating in the ceremony, i.e bowing, excepting blessings, etc... I doubt that any sane and rational person would show up at a religious establishment during a service to disrupt it. By not participating in the service you can make quite a statement and I think that is valid in the situation that a wedding puts some of us in. Yes I want to respect my friends yet at the same time I refuse to compromise my beliefs. I will sit through the service but will not bow or except the blessings from the priest. |
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Author: Kelly (---.kcc.com)
Date: 08-24-00 14:15
I can understand not bowing or accepting blessings from a priest. I am not Catholic, yet while I am Christian, I would not participate in communion at a Catholic church, or give recognition to Mary. I suppose it was more the attitude of one of the messages that caught my attention,
>>"What is ok is protesting anti-Jeiwsh poicies and statements of the Church and other Christian establishments, something like refusing to applaud for a speaker whose views you disagree with, or writing dissenting letters to the editor"
Maybe the author wasn't being clear, but I read it as if she is saying that protesting statements of the Church is okay because statements of the Church are anti-Jewish policies. It just sounded hostile to me. |
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| Statements from the Church |
Author: Anon (---.ptc.com)
Date: 08-24-00 15:34
Kelly,
There are things that the Church says that are hurtful to Jews. Some statements may not even be anti-semitic but still hurtfull. I believe that a statement that would proclaim Pious (forget the number) a saint very upsetting, and I believe a lot of Jews would want to protest this action. Some to the point of disrupting press releases or speaches, certainly not religious services. I also feel that there are Jews who feel that the Church owes them an apology for the years of anti-semitism. |
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Author: Kelly (---.kcc.com)
Date: 08-24-00 19:34
Anon,
Which Churches make statements which are hurtful to Jews? There are many many denominations of Christianity; in all the services I've ever attended, I have never heard comments which would be hurtful towards Jews.
I think when one is in an interfaith relationship, they are sometimes going to have experiences which make them uncomfortable. When I have gone to my boyfriend's temple, and the rabbi states that Jews are God's chosen people, how does do you think this makes a non-Jew feel? Not too special! But I don't refuse to go to his temple. I like going with him, actually.
I really don't know which church-related anti-semitic acts you are referring to. No religion should be concerned with being hurtful toward another's religion. At no point in my Christianity, have I ever found this not to be true.
>>"How do past transgressions of INDIVIDUALS against Jews negate all of Christianity? " (a catholic) -- I still agree with this statement. Example, should all African-Americans harbor ill feelings toward all Caucasians until the end of time because at one point in history, SOME whites chose to participate in slavery? I don't really think so.
In the same way, I don't think a church, unless still participating in anti-semitic acts, should be held accountable for past semitic acts. Now what I think is hardly important, it's just the way I feel. |
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| You don't understand how The Church has hurt Jews? |
Author: Ellen (---.milwaukee.k12.wi.us)
Date: 08-24-00 23:10
Kelly:
You've heard, maybe, of the Crusades? How about the Spanish Inquisition? Was <B> that </b>just the act of a few misguided individuals? How about the churches which continue to tout the message that only people who believe in ol' JC are "saved" and that all the rest of us are headed for eternal damnation? You can't see how that might bother Jews just a teeny tiny little bit? I've been inside a number of churches in my time for family weddings or funerals, and here's what I've never heard a minister say: "Well, there may be some truth to Christian doctrine, but not any more than any other religion." No, ma'am. It's always "God agrees with us in this here church, and you should, too, if you know what's good for you."
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| "chosen people" concept |
Author: Ellen (---.milwaukee.k12.wi.us)
Date: 08-24-00 23:21
Kelly:
for an explanation of what Jews actually believe, try going to
www.jewfaq.org/gentiles.htm |
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| Christianity |
Author: Anon - Len (---.ptc.com)
Date: 08-28-00 14:43
Kelly,
I guess I'm not anon anymore. Anyways, let's talk about theological belief for one minute. Christianity, and it doesn't matter which denomination, basically is a religion of belief in Jesus Christ as the saviour of mankind. The only way to a Xstian salvation is through belief in Jesus the son, period. By the very nature of the the theology Xstianinty denies the validity of all other belief structures. As a non-believer that makes me very uncomfortable/angry.
Let's talk about the term chosen people. What are the Jews chosen for? Have you asked your boyfriend what this means? Have you asked a rabbi what this means? God chose the Jewish people to be his example to the other nations. Does that make them better? NO! It just means that Jews have to live by more laws and in fact in Jewish belief it is far easier to be a righteous goyim than a righteous Jew.
Let's be perfectly clear about this in all of the theology that I have studied I have found that Judiasm never states that it is the only path to God. In fact in the Talmud it states the "God loves righteous men". Notices how it doesn't state only Jews are loved by God. In fact rabbis have interpreted this to mean that all men, Jews or otherwise, have a stake in Gods kingdom. Please tell me where in the Christian doctorine can a non-believer go to Heaven.
My final point is this, I have studied many other faiths and I live in a Christian society. I am told by people with leaflets that I am going to hell every Saturday when I walk down a certain street. I know that some Xstians look down apon my people as having "missed the boat". I also know that the Catholic Church never apologized for the wrongs it has done to many different peoples including the Jews.
This certainly doesn't mean that we can't live together but it also doesn't mean that the Jews have to respect the institution or it's symbols. |
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| to anon |
Author: a catholic (---.lifespan.org)
Date: 08-29-00 11:20
Anon,
you equally misunderstand Christianity, or at least Catholicism.
I suggest that you read 3 sources about "salvation outside the Church"---
1) Nostra Aetate---the official document of Vatican II on Catholic/Jewish relations
2) The Catechism of the Catholic Church---a sort of Catholic Shulchan Aruch--
3)"Crossing the Threshold of Hope"---a book by Pope John Paul II
They all state the same, which ABSOLUTELY IS NOT that non-Christians cant be "saved". They basically all say that people who truly follow the path of God as denoted by their religion, and follow the MOral Law, and who do not know that Jesus is divine are still most probably saved. "do not know" is up for some interpretation, but has been defined in modern times as "invincible ignorance"---meaning that their basic tradition,upbringing,society,etc. dont really allow him/her to seriously look at Jesus. One can only NOT be saved if one knows in his heart that Jesus really is divine,etc., but then does not become Christian out of convenience, or whatever.
Also, you make mis-statements about history. Yes, the Church has alot to apologize for. Largely, it has in recent documents. Also, you must realize that most of what has been said about Pius XII is utter fabrication. For 20 years after the war, prominent Jewish leaders (Golda Meir for one!) profusely and publicly thanked the pope for his well-documented efforts to SAVE Jews from murder (I can link you to sites which prove this if you like). Again, however, Christian theology has NEVER dictated anti-Semitism. It is ultimately un-Christ-like to be an anti-Semite; it is un-Christian, and that IS a fast track to Hell.
Some evangelical sects believe that you cannot be saved without a belief in Jesus, but it is MOST CERTAINLY NOT the doctrine of the large mainstream churches (Catholic, Episcopal, Methodist, Presbyterian,etc.).
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| a catholic |
Author: Anon (---.ptc.com)
Date: 08-29-00 12:50
Really,
The last 3 Catholic priests I spoke with certainly didn't share your view. In fact they basically told me that in my heart I knew Jesus was my saviour and that only when I accepted this could I really be saved. Perhaps you should recommend some of those books to them.
Ultimately belief is only half the equation, action is the other half. Your telling me that the Church believes x then I talk to a priest that by his actions shows me that he believes in something different. By the way has the Church given up preaching the Gospels? Has the Church stopped missionizing? I don't think so. Actions speak stronger than beliefs.
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| anon |
Author: a catholic (---.lifespan.org)
Date: 08-29-00 13:09
Those priests are just plain wrong doctrinally, unless you gave them some reason to believe that you have at least some vague belief in Jesus. I'm curious--why were you talking to so many priests anyhow? The pope and the catechism clearly go against what these priests say.
Yes, we still preach the Gospels, which are NOT ant-semitic...in fact they are just plain semitic...everyone in them is Jewish!
Look, I cant account for or apologize for any Catholic who strays from doctrine which clearly preaches tolerance and love. I cant do an instant survey to see if the preponderance of Catholics still have some anti-Semitic biases. If they do, it is awful. The Church has slowly reversed these errors over the last 125 years or so, with particular attention to it since Vatican II (almost 40 years now).
No matter what the history, lets have tolerance go both ways now! Lets not hold grudges. I think it was Yitzhak Rabin who said "well, you dont have to make peace with your friends" when asked why he suddenly was negotiating so openly with the PLO which had perpetrated such obvious atrocities against Jews/Israel in the very recent past. I suggest we have the same attitude...both of us and our co-religionists. |
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| A Catholic |
Author: Anon (---.ptc.com)
Date: 08-30-00 15:45
I spoke to the priests because I have quite a few Catholic friends who got married this year and I was fortunate to be in all of thier marriages. One of my friends actually asked me to talk with his priest because he felt that this guy really had something to say. Also, one of my fraternity brothers became a priest 2 years ago, that was really strange because of the life he led prior to being ordained. Anyways, perhaps you could explain something to me. By the way I would say that the Gospel of Paul is clearly anti-semitic in that it basiclly says that the law as given by God is no longer neccessary and that it existd soley because the people before Jesus where idolotors, murders, thieves, etc.. , I guess that would mean that Jews are all those things since the law was given to them. Maybe we should take this to another forum? |
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| Is that you, Len? |
Author: Susan (---.milwaukee.k12.wi.us)
Date: 08-30-00 22:27
I've been following this discussion with interest, but I've declined to comment on Jeri Zeder's story, and will continue to do so. First of all, Paul is not one of the Gospel writers. Also,in the last 40 years, the Catholic Church has made some real advances in respect to Judaism. Unfortunately, it can't purge or reprogram those clergy, much less those parishioners, who formed their attitudes before Vatican II. |
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| Another Catholic |
Author: Jennifer (---.microsoft.com)
Date: 09-08-00 22:24
As a Catholic I would like to comment on anon's post:
>Anyways, perhaps you could explain something to me. By the way I would say >that the Gospel of Paul is clearly anti-semitic in that it basiclly says that the law >as given by God is no longer neccessary and that it existd soley because the >people before Jesus where idolotors, murders, thieves, etc.. , I guess that would >mean that Jews are all those things since the law was given to them.
As mentioned by Susan, Paul did not write a gospel. However, he did write several epistles (letters) to members of the early Christian church. Furthermore, in one of those epistles he did state that the law was no longer relevant to the people in those communities to resolve a conflict among them (new members of the community were not circumcised and the formerly Jewish people from the community felt they should be). He did not say that Jewish law was irrelevant. In fact, he said that those who were Jewish should live by the Law (and not break any of the laws), but that Jesus brought a new law and that that law was enough for those who believed in him. (I'm not trying to preach here, only to inform you about the text.)
Some of what Paul wrote has been considered anti semetic as well as anti feminist (he's the one who wrote "wives submit to your husbands"). His writings are controversial among Christians as well as those of other faiths.
Additionally, I would like to personally apologize for the awful things that my church has perpetrated against the Jewish people throughout history. I know that I cannot repair what has been done, but I would if I could.
Thank you for tolerating my opinions.
--Jennifer |
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| thank you, Jennifer |
Author: Jeri Zeder (---.z208176094.bos-ma.dsl.cnc.net)
Date: 09-10-00 09:48
Jennifer,
Your posting is a welcome sight. You state your opinions respectfully, without personal attacks, with compassion, and with a sense that you have heard the other side. Your apology is an honest one: of course, you can't change what has happened, but it is good to know that you understand what has happened and how it affects people even today. My own in-laws have spoken to me in just this way, and I think that it has everything to do with why I can respect their upbringings and the way they live their lives today. It also has everything to do with why I am trying not to visit my "baggage" on my children. I am raising my children as Jews, and they are entitled to know history, but the Catholic Church and many Catholics and other Christians have come a long way in their attitudes toward Jews. I don't want my kids to carry the burden of seeing enemies everywhere, and I want them to see that all cultures and religions have inspiring truths and stories to tell.
Again, thank you Jennifer for the civility and compassion in your message.
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| Confused about Catholicism |
Author: Confused (209.56.69.---)
Date: 03-14-01 11:11
Ok, I don't know how I got to this page, but maybe you (whoever it reading this) Can help me. All I was doing was looking on the internet for something that shows me exactly what Catholics believe. Do you know how hard that is? Yeah, there are TONS of catholic pages, but none so far have just come straight out and told me what Catholics believe. I'm kind of researching this for a paper at school, but also for my own knowlege. I've grown up Baptist, and of course I've heard of catholics, and most of the kids at my school are catholics, but why don't I know what they believe? I've often wondered why there are nearly 900 Catholics around me every day and not one of them have ever shared their faith with me. Is that not something you do? I know we do, all of my friends know exactly what I believe about God, Heaven, Hell, Eternal Life, everything. So my question is, what do you believe? Who do you actually worship? I can't tell you how many times I've heard the name Mary come out of people's mouths. Do you worship her or what? I don't understand. Who do you believe in, and pray to, and what do you believe Jesus did for you? How does one get to Heaven? Anyway, I think you understand my point. I know nothing about your faith and I'd like someone to lay it out for me. |
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| Ignore, this is just a test. |
Author: IFF editor (---.ne.mediaone.net)
Date: 12-18-01 10:45
Ignore, this is just a test. |
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Cabinet at the front of the synagogue where the Torah is kept.
In Christianity, when wine and a wafer, symbolic of the blood and body of Jesus Christ, are consumed.
Derogatory Yiddish term for non-Jews.
Spiritual leader and teacher. Typically, but not always, leads a congregation.
"Synagogue" in Yiddish.
The major collection of rabbinic Jewish law.
Place of Jewish worship. Same as synagogue.
A topically organized code of Jewish law written in the 16th century by Joseph Caro. Hebrew title means "the set table."
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