Rabbinic Officiation At Intermarriages - Page 2

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Re: Welcome to our discussions!

Author: Rabbi Yeshaia Charles Familant
Date: 10-18-02 12:32

I have one question for Rabbi Kotok. What is the practical difference between what he regards as a Jewish marriage and one that he does not so regard? I ask the question because he states that rabbis will regard one as Jewish and the other as not. But my question still stands: What difference does it make either to the married couple or to their offspring?

Rabbi Yeshaia Charles Familant

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Chicago area Rabbis

Author: Scott Kaplan
Date: 11-12-02 09:53

Does anyone happen to know of any Chicago area Rabbis that would co-officiate an interfaith wedding? I am starting my search and not having much luck. If there is anyone that is familiar with this area and has any advice, please let me know.

Thank you for your time.

Scott

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Re: Chicago area Rabbis

Author: Rabbi Jacques Cukierkorn
Date: 11-12-02 17:17

My friend and colleague, Rabbi Michael (Misha) Tillman will co-officiate.
His phone number is : 847 5090125
Shalom,
Rabbi Jacques Cukierkorn
Kansas City, MO

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Re:(anonymous, for now)

Author: Allison
Date: 11-19-02 19:57

Do you feel that interfaith marriages are somehow less holy than marriages between two born Jews? Do you believe that your upcoming marriage is less holy than other members of your congregation?

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Re: Rabbi Kahn's Performing Intermarriages

Author: Robin Margolis
Date: 11-20-02 11:03

11/20/02

Dear Friends: I very much enjoyed reading Rabbi Kahn's discussion about why he changed his view on performing intermarriages. A thoroughly sensible and human viewpoint. Hopefully some of his colleagues who still refuse to perform intermarriages will see it and perhaps rethink their positions.

Cordially,
Robin Margolis

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Interfaith couples should not need validation from the outside

Author: Rabbi Jacques Cukierkorn
Date: 11-20-02 20:43

Robyn,

Although I perform at interfaith marriages (and also co-officiate, what puts me in a real minority), I believe rabbis have the right to do as they see fit. As you can imagine, rabbis do not come to the decision of officiation or not at interfaith marraiges lighty. For me it was a long and dificult process, mainly since it went against the way I grew up!
At the same time, whereas every couple should be given help, they ought not to require validation from the outside. God loves love, it is a gift of God that 2 people can love each other. So, while it is nice to have a rabbi willing to marry you, you ought not need to feel God loves you any less or aproves any less of your relationship, if you can't find a rabbi willing to marry you.
Just my 2 cents...

Rabbi Jacques Cukierkorn

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Re: Allison, and Rabbi Jacques

Author: (anonymous, for now)
Date: 11-22-02 13:24

Allison, you asked whether I personally feel our upcoming marriage is less holy than a marriage between two Jews would be (or whether other
interfaith marriages are less holy.)

My answer is that I personally do think the marriage will be holy and
sanctified, but that I understand that I'm making a minority interpretation of centuries of Jewish texts and interpretations (not to mention
listening to my heart!), and so I don't feel that I need other members of the community or a rabbi to agree with me, to validate the sanctification of our marriage, etc. and I don't feel the need to make it my personal fight to convince them to change their minds about it. I guess I feel like there's room for these differing interpretations (two Jews, three opinions, and all that.)

[I certainly do need my community to think our partnership is legitimate - I would deal a lot less well with a community (and they do exist) who would treat intermarried Jews as if there was nothing legitimate about their relationship at all, ie upon inviting them over for the weekend would force them to sleep in separate beds because they're "not really married". ]

I think Rabbi Jacques' point about it only *really* being necessary for
the couple themselves to think that G-d approves of their relationship
is an interesting one. On the one hand, it's kind of what I've been saying -
we're personally comfortable with what we're doing and think our marriage
will be sanctified and that there's something behind it all, and we don't
feel a need to have everyone in our community agree with us.

But on the other hand, it's also reasonable for a couple to want and work towards that kind of community validation. If taken to its extreme, you could say "well, if *you* choose to define Judaism as making human sacrifices to idols, and you think that's holy, then go ahead, you
don't need any validation from the community to do things your way.
But I think the conflict is in how to blend "doing it your way" (on more reasonable tenets than deciding to perform human sacrifice!) with maintaining a sense of oneself as a Jew who is part of a Jewish community. So people seek out that community validation in the things they *do* want to do "Jewishly". And weddings are a big part of the
things people want to do "Jewishly."

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getting married

Author: bryna bass
Date: 12-06-02 15:17

this is my question: we live in cincinnati, ohio. we are getting married in june of 2003. i am jewish, he is not. we are not looking for a dual-officiated wedding, but i have no idea of where to start looking at all. we would like to incorporate some jewish rituals into the ceremony. does any one know of a really cool rabbi or minister or civil servant in the cincinnati area?
thanks -bryna

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Re: getting married

Author: Scotty
Date: 12-10-02 10:55

I am from the cicncinnati area, and will advise you that there are not many rabbis who will officiate at a dual faith ceremony. Not even the most reform rabbis do this. When I say not many, I mean not many. In all of the city there was only one rabbi who used to do this. He is retired now, and no longer lives in the city, I believe.... and this is cincinnati.

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difficulties

Author: Rabbi Jacques Cukierkorn
Date: 12-10-02 14:19

Unfortunately Scott is correct. In many parts of the country, and specially away from the coasts, interfaith couples need to be ready to bring someone from out of town if they want a rabbinic presence at their weddings.
Rabbi Jacques Cukierkorn
Kansas City, MO

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Re: getting married

Author: bryna bass
Date: 01-20-03 13:12

thanks for responding to my question regarding interfaith weddings and finding someone to perform them. i did find a rabbi in the greater cincinnati, ohio area who does perform interfaith weddings, doesn't require any pre-marriage faith based learning and would even be willing to do it on a saturday. he is rabbi barr of beth adam in the loveland madeira area. beth adam is a humanistic jewish congregation. he does have couples fill out a survey between themselves that really is provided to get people talking and gives him a better idea of who you are and what place faith and judiasm play/will play in the marriage. and then he meets with couples and decides if it feels like a good fit for him as well. in his words, 'i don't just want to be a mouth piece at your ceremony or there only because someone's mother wants me there'. i liked his attitude.
thanks to those of you who responded to my request.
--bryna

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Re:Interfaith marriages

Author: Byron Turnoff
Date: 04-22-03 14:40

There is a growing concern over this issue. It is not only in the Reform movement but also in the Conservative movement as well. I think every rabbi needs to make and has the right to make their own personal decision on this matter. However, it seems to me that the major consideration to perform an interfaith ceremony should be a promise by the couple to raise their children in the Jewish Faith (L'dor v'dor). I agree with many of the other comments that there appears to be some hypocracy with not performing the ceremony but welcoming them after someone else has married the couple. I am glad that this message board is here. I will email it to many people that will find it quite interesting.

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Re: bryan turnoff

Author: scotty
Date: 04-26-03 14:54

<<There is a growing concern over this issue. It is not only in the Reform movement but also in the Conservative movement as well. >>

I disagree that the conservative movememt is finding issues with intermarriage in the conservative movement. Most conservative Jews don't marry outside the faith. Not one conservative rabbi where I live will perform an intermarriage.

<<I think every rabbi needs to make and has the right to make their own personal decision on this matter. However, it seems to me that the major consideration to perform an interfaith ceremony should be a promise by the couple to raise their children in the Jewish Faith (L'dor v'dor).>>

You have interesting view on this matter.
Rabbis have the right to do whatever they want as far as religion is concerned. Heck, as unlikely as it would ever be, an orthodox rabbi could officiate at an interfaith wedding, if he so chose. Rabbis have the RIGHT to do this. "Right" is the wrong word to use.
Our government issues "rights" and since government and religion are seperate in america, there is no police force that is going to stop a rabbi from perfoming at an interfaith ceremony-thus there is no "right" to be taken away.
When you say 'right', i think you mean that the rabbi should be free from consequences from their choice and actions when they choose to officiate at interfaith weddings.
Every action, every choice, has consequnces, good and/or bad. No rabbi is free from that.
Most rabbis won't officiate at interfaith weddings because they fear the consequences could be bad for the Jewish community as a whole. Rabbis aren't just responsible for the two individuals getting married, it's their responsibility to ensure in every way possible the continuance of Judaism. Most rabbis feel that if they make the choice to officiate at an intefaith marriage, they would be violating that fundamental role of being a rabbi.
Additionally, rabbis are responsible to their congregations. If they violate the values of their congregations in a strong way, the congregations can oust them. If only for that reason, a rabbi may not officiate at an interfaith wedding.
There are some rabbis however, who don't feel this way, and view intermarriage as matter of fact. They see officiating at an interfaith wedding as a way to bring Judaism into the lives of people whom otherwise it might be lost to, thereby attempting to continue the religion that way. It can have good affects, and the children of intermarried couples can grow up to be Jewish-although often they don't because they quickly learn they were not recognized as "Jews" to begin with, and many then take the notion "why bother." They may do things Jewish, but if no one recognizes them as Jews, then for many, they are hurt, and feel they shouldn't even bother.

<<I agree with many of the other comments that there appears to be some hypocracy with not performing the ceremony but welcoming them after someone else has married the couple. >>

I respectfully disagree. To begin with, no rabbi, I don't care who it is, really wants to intermarry a Jew and a Gentile. That would amount to rabbis practically going around and actively telling Jews to marry outside the faith, no rabbi would do this. But what if say 10 years ago someone is intermarried, and now they have a young child, and they make a big decision they had not made before, to raise the child Jewish.

Should that family not be welcomed? Many rabbis, Reform primarily, would disagree with that, and therefore welcome the family, which is just fine.

.

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Re: Scotty's posting

Author: Ed Case
Date: 04-26-03 15:41

I just want to point out a few things. First, while "most" Conservative Jews may not intermarry, I'm sure that there is a very significant amount of intermarriage among Conservative Jews. Second, the ruies of the Conservative Movement's Rabbinical Assembly prohibit a member from officiating at an intermarriage, so a rabbi may have the "right" to do so, but if he or she did, he could be removed from membership in the Movement's rabbinical association. That's a major reason why Conservative rabbis don't officiate at intermarriages. Third, the children of intermarried parents are considered Jewish by all of the movements if the mother is Jewish, and by the Reform Movement if either parent is Jewish and the children are raised as Jews. About 40% of American Jews affiliate with the Reform Movement.

We have published a number of articles by rabbis explaining why they do or do not officiate at intermarriages. They can be easily found in our Archive at
http://interfaithfamily.com/archive/lifecycle.phtml#rabbis_and_interfaith_weddings

I know that many Conservative rabbis are very concerned about welcoming interfaith families into their syngogues. The Conservative Movement's Federation of Jewish Mens Clubs is doing very innovative work with many synagogues around the country to help make them more welcoming. In Northern California there is a Project Tiferet with the same purpose.

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Re:

Author: mpfreed
Date: 04-26-03 16:10

Your statement that 40% of (American?) Jews affiliate with Reform needs correcting. According to one of the most recent national surveys only 51% of American Jews are religiously affiliated and only 30% of American Jews overall express a leaning to the Reform outlook

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Re: ed case

Author: scotty
Date: 04-28-03 13:06

Ed, your response to my posting is interesting to say the least.

You said a couple of things that particulary struck me.
Primarily, the following....

<<the rules of the Conservative Movement's Rabbinical Assembly prohibit a member from officiating at an intermarriage, so a rabbi may have the "right" to do so, but if he or she did, he could be removed from membership in the Movement's rabbinical association. That's a major reason why Conservative rabbis don't officiate at intermarriages>>

Am I to understand then that politics are, according to you, a major reason why more conservative rabbis don't officiate? POLITICS?!
In any congregation, politics are a part of life, of course, and do affect some decisions a rabbi has to make, but the institution of marriage should be free from politics as much as possible.

By your statement, you seem to imply that there is no spiritual/religious aspect involved in a rabbi's decision not to officiate at an intermarrige. This is troubling.

From a spiritual perspective, I would think that most conservative rabbis would not officiate at intermarriage ceremonies. A rabbi is after all a Jewish spiritual/ religious leader primarily, a political leader second. Is this not so?
At the risk of sounding naive, would not a rabbi therefore consider the spiritual/religious consequences before the political consequnces?

In my book, he better.

If I ever found out my rabbi performing religious acts, whatever they were, out of politics- especially if that act were performing intermarriage ceremonies, something so controversial in this day and age, I would probably leave the congregation.

If a rabbi is going to perform somthing as controversial as an interfaith marriage, then he should spiritually be okay with that, and not just be doing it out of politics.

The thing is though, I think most rabbis are not spiritually okay with that, and that's why they dont perform them, politics in this issue I think takes the back seat.

I will say this much, I know my rabbi well, and I know he is a very spiritual person, and would not make a religious/ spiritual decision based on politics. It is this standard that I hold all rabbis to, and so should everyone.

<<just want to point out a few things. First, while "most" Conservative Jews may not intermarry, I'm sure that there is a very significant amount of intermarriage among Conservative Jews. >>

What makes you say this? Reform Judaism, yes, I'd agree. I'ld be interested to see what makes you say that a "signifigant" number of Jews intermarry from the conservative movement.

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Re: scotty

Author: Ed Case
Date: 04-28-03 14:25

I didn't say that rabbis made decisions whether or not to officiate because of "politics" or only because of politics. I'm sure that many rabbis don't officiate at intermarriages for reasons of conscience. However i also believe that if the Rabbinical Assembly left it to the personal choice of Conservative rabbis, some number of them would officiate. I wouldn't demean that by saying that that would be a "political" decision.

The statistic I can quickly make available is that in the Boston 1995 demographic survey, 30% of people who were raised Reform had spouses who were not Jewish, while 16% of people who were raised Conservative had spouses who were not Jewish. I'd call that "significant" and would not be at all surprised if the percentage were now higher.

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Re: scotty

Author: Rabbi Jacques Cukierkorn
Date: 04-28-03 14:35

Allow me my $0.02:
I know several Conservative rabbis who would officiate al interfaith weddings if they were allowed (or at least not expelled) by the Rabbinical Assembly. Politics is part of life, I know there are many things they like and approve in their movement and thus they stay in it. These Conservative rabbis tend to find a rabbi they trust and refer the interfaith marriages to them. That , at least happens to me. I receive referrals from quite a few Conservative rabbis.
Rabbi Schindler Z"L once said that "Intermarriage and assimilation are the thorns in the rose of our integration in America". No Jewish movement is immune to those phenomena, the only difference is the solution each movement and each rabbi has for the problems of modernity.
Rabbi Jacques Cukierkorn
Kansas City, MO

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Re: rabbi jacques

Author: scotty
Date: 04-29-03 11:25

<<I know several Conservative rabbis who would officiate al interfaith weddings if they were allowed (or at least not expelled) by the Rabbinical Assembly. Politics is part of life, I know there are many things they like and approve in their movement and thus they stay in it. These Conservative rabbis tend to find a rabbi they trust and refer the interfaith marriages to them. >>

Politics are definitely a part of life, of that I have no doubt. I'm sure not every Conservative rabbi agrees 100% with rulings of the rabbinical council, all the time. I consider myself Conservative, and don't agree with everything that Conservative Judaism touts.

I think it is sad that things have come to this, that there are Conservative rabbis who feel that in order to preserve the Jewish people, they need to allow interfaith marriages. Or perhaps I should lament equally that there are so many Jews who make the choice. Generally, children of interfaith marriages don't grow up with a strong connection to Judaism. GENERALLY speaking, that is. Some interfaith marriages may produce strong and connected Jews. This is good, of course. It's just too bad it doesn't happen more often.

A strong connection to Judaism is needed; no, it's absolutely vital, for Judaism to continue into the 21st century as a strong, vibrant religion. Interfaith marriages don't allow for that, unless there is an absolute commitment to raise the child Jewish, with no influence whatsoever from the spouses religion, whatever it may be.

I see too many Jews today, whether intermarried or not, that just don't have a strong connection to their faith. It's really very sad. I bet if you ask intermarried Jews today how strong a Jewish upbringing they had, most will say not very strong.

Marriage is an individual choice, yes. You should be able to marry who you wish to. Nine years ago I was ready to marry a non-Jew. She would not have converted. My family, while they liked her, was devastated when I told them. They didn't do anything like threaten to disown me or anything quite so reactionary, they were just devastated that I was not marrying a Jew. This marriage never took place - because she ended the relationship, for other reasons than religion. In retrospect, I learned that even very personal choices, like marriage, can affect more than just the two people getting married.

The very personal choices that rabbis make can also effect more than the people getting married. A KEY part of the Jewish faith is how we behave towards others. It's not enough to just believe in one God. I couldn't again hurt my family by marrying a gentile.

I know I want to live a distinctly Jewish life. I'm not Orthodox by any means, mind you. But The life I currently live is very much a Jewish one, as opposed to secular, or that of another religion. In my book, its not enough to just call yourself "Jewish" or a Jew. You have to put your money where your mouth is. For me, (and I understand for others it may be different) one has to be the part. Had I married a gentile, I do not think I could have lived a distinctly Jewish life. Even had I had all the information that this website provides to assist its members who do intermarry but make a decsion to incorporate Judaism into their households, I don't think I could have done it.

The personal choice of Conservative rabbis to marry a Jew to a gentile is a dangerous, risky choice. If we're (the Jewish people) lucky, these choices will work to our advantage. The people on this website seem to all be making Jewish choices, and that's great. Let's hope there are a lot more such people out there.

<<Rabbi Schindler Z"L once said that "Intermarriage and assimilation are the thorns in the rose of our integration in America".>>

On that, I'd agree 100%.

<<No Jewish movement is immune to those phenomena, the only difference is the solution each movement and each rabbi has for the problems of modernity. >>

True, no Jewish movement is immune to this. But, let's face it, among Orthodox Jews, the incidence level is so small, its almost immeasurable.

Scotty

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Re: ed case

Author: scotty
Date: 04-29-03 12:10

Ed, just wanted to take the time to address an issue of wording.

In your original reply, you stated:
<<just want to point out a few things. First, while "most" Conservative Jews may not intermarry, I'm sure that there is a very significant amount of intermarriage among Conservative Jews. >>

Then you gavce me the information you promised.
<<The statistic I can quickly make available is that in the Boston 1995 demographic survey, 30% of people who were raised Reform had spouses who were not Jewish, while 16% of people who were raised Conservative had spouses who were not Jewish. I'd call that "significant" and would not be at all surprised if the percentage were now higher.>>

While it may sound nitpicky "Intermarriage among conservative Jews" indicates that there are Jews who classify themselves as Conservative who intermarry.
****This is different than Jews who were raised Conservative, and then intermarry, as the statistic you provided shows. **** You are comparing apples and oranges.

I submit (simply as matter of fact) that the statistics for Jews who CONSIDER THEMSELVES RELIGIOUSLY CONSERVATIVE(as opposed to having been raised that way) and marry gentiles is far fewer than 16%.

An overwhelming majority of people who describe themselves as Conservative do not marry gentiles. Most Conservative congregations don't accept intermarried couples.
What sense would it make for a person who married a gentile to call themselves Conservative when they are rejected by that movement?

Dont get me wrong, I'm not saying there are not religiously Conservative Jews who do marry gentiles. I'm sure they are out there, and thats fine. I just think that they are far fewer than you might believe.

But just to reiterate... there is a distinct difference between being raised Conservative, and considering yourself a Conservative Jew.

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Re: Robin

Author: sara
Date: 07-07-03 20:58

In response to the comment:

"It's a stance that makes no sense at all. If you don't approve of peoples' intermarriages, why have huge interfaith family outreach programs and welcome these families?"

For nearly any Jew, of any denomination, who opposes iintermarriage, the reason for the opposition is that intermarriage dramatically increases the liklihood that the children of Jews will stray from the Jewish people. When seen form that context, I think disaproval of marriage, and strong outreach to intermarried families makes perfect sense. Both have as their goal keeping Jews Jewish.

Moreover, in response to:

"Is it moral or honorable to tell people that you don't approve of their intermarriages and then take their money and membership fees?"

Yes, absolutely it is. This is becasue the function of a rabbi (as I understand it, I'm a kararite, so it is possible that i'm wrong) is not to collect dues and fees, but rather to provide spiritual tutulage and support. If a rabbi does not approve of a criminal's behavior, should he bar him form his shul? Should he refuse to minister to those he feels may need it most? That, I think, would be immoral.

shalom,

sara

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Re: Welcome to our discussions!

Author: Juliana Burgess
Date: 08-10-03 19:23

Hello,

My name is Juliana and my fiance's name is David. David is Jewish and I am Catholic (but not a particularly religious or practicing Catholic). David and I want to be married in a synagogue by a Rabbi.

I read Katie's story and feel exactly the way she felt about her husband before they got married. Out of love and respect for David and his faith, I want to have a traditional jewish wedding, and we need help figuring out how to start the process. There is a strong possibility that I may convert to Judiasm in the future, but want to do it because of the faith itself not just out of love for my fiance. I have begun to read many books on Judiasm and identify with many of the beliefs associated with the religion, but have not quite been able to reconcile myself with crossing the line completely. My parents are not helping . . .

Anyway, that's a little background about us, I'm sure it is nothing you haven't heard before . . . Any ideas you could share with us about the best way to find a reform synagogue to marry us would be really great. Many thanks in advance.

David and Juliana

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Re:

Author: Cantor Li-Paz
Date: 10-03-03 20:56

I write this message to all interfaith couples preparing for both their wedding and marriage.

The issue of interfaith marriage is obviously an emotive one within the Jewish community. It is seen as both a threat to our religious longevity and by some, like myself, as an asset in a time when cultural and religious communities are so blended within our society. Jews and non-Jews share most of American life together, so the chance of happening upon one's love and life-partner in that same mix is overwhelmingly high.

As a cantor who regularly performs interfaith weddings throughout the country, I offer and insist on a number of meetings with wedding couples, ideally in person, or at least on the telephone of distance is prohibitive. In these "meetings" we spend a great deal of time discussing the issues of wedding and marriage, with a great emphasis on the later. My greatest hope for all couples is that they make conscious choices regarding their religious futures, rather than making concessions to one another based merely on a desire to not make waves as they approach their weddings.

If I can be a resource for any of you, please do not hesitate to contact me via IFF.

Happy and healthy New Year to all,

Cantor Ron Li-Paz

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other than Christian mix?

Author: Mildred
Date: 12-16-03 18:01

Hello.

In every post I've seen in the forum has been in reference to someone Jewish marrying someone Christian (when particular religions have been mentioned).

What about someone who is Jewish marrying someone from another religion? My boyfriend and I are discussing marriage, and he is Jewish. I identify myself as an eclectic pagan. (Yes, pagan.) We are very supportive of each other and interested in learning about each other's religious beliefs. We want our (theoretical) children to follow their own paths and hearts.

We also want to have a religious ceremony, where we're both comfortable with it (which means that neither religion is ignored or downplayed).

What are the prevailing attitudes to Jewish-Pagan (as opposed to Jewish-Christian) intermarriages? If it is difficult to find a rabbi who will officiate over a Jewish/Christian union, will it be downright impossible to find a rabbi who will do so for a Jewish/Pagan union?

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HELP

Author: nancy cohen
Date: 09-15-04 10:16

I am a mother trying to find a solution for my eldest son.We practice tradional judism .He will be getting married May 2005 in Tornto.My future daughter in law is from the United Church .Will anyone marry these adults ,they wolud like a rabbi and a minister.Also they want to get married on a saturday late.As a mom ,I think this is an impossible order to fill and they will have to have an justice of the peace.
I HAVE A VERY STRONG FAITH AND WOULD LIKEV MY CHILDREN TO GET MARRIED IN THE EYES OF G_D
I converted to judiasm 28 years ago and have brought my children up in a jewish home .

I AM LOST AT WHERE TO START

NANCY COHEN

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