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Raising Children As Jews In Interfaith Families - Page 3

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To A.S.

Author: Susan (---.milwaukee.k12.wi.us)
Date: 07-23-01 22:11

Was your friend raised in some other religion or was she ever religious? Some people just never are and just don't have a religious mentality. It's also quite normal for people in their teens and twenties, who haven't had children yet to not be very religious. Yet. As someone old enough to be your mother, I can tell you that <B> having children changes EVERYTHING. </b> And while I'm on the subject of your children, you owe it to them to let them learn about their heritage. Raising them as "nothing" and then asking them to choose a religion when they grow up puts them in a terrible position. I've been there and I know.

As painful as it may feel for you right now, it sounds as if you have made a very wise decision.

To susan

Author: A.S. (---.dialsprint.net)
Date: 07-23-01 23:05

Thanks for the reply. She was not raised with any faith, and although I would never consider her "christian" I do consider her very "gentile". I (somewhat) joke that her family is to my family what Annie Hall's was to Woody Allen's family in "Annie Hall".

She has never gone to church and expresses no interest at all in her family's religion. She does have a grandmother who is quite religious, but I don't think that's an issue with her. Her father passed away when she was in her teens, and I think that made her question and doubt any kind of G-d or higher power, and I can't say I blame her.

It's not so much her lack of faith as it is her disinterested position when it comes to my issues. I know interfaith couples in which the non jewish person enthusiastically supports and is truly interested and curious about what Judaism is about, and who are as Jewish or more so than many jews I know. But my girlfriend doesn't seem to have that same "ruach" .

As far as potential kids, I don't think her suggestion is to raise them without a religion, but rather, with Judaism and other Christian holidays such as Christmas and Easter, which some may argue have become Americanized and secular, but to me still represent Christianity, no matter what. Others including she have argued that these holidays are simply times for family to be together to eat and exchange gifts, and that's all that matters. WHile I agree, I don't know why, and have a hard time finding the words to explain to her why I don't see christmas as only that.

Anyway, thanks for taking the time to reply.

A.S.

Author: Susan (---.milwaukee.k12.wi.us)
Date: 07-24-01 08:09

You're very welcome. I hope I can help. It sounds like the two of you just have two very different and incompatible mindsets.

As for your friend's vision, oy, does that sound familiar to me! You may try pointing out a distinction between children who are religiously "Nothing" and children who are simultaneously two different "Somethings," but I can tell you that when they are two contradictory "Somethings" as you describe, the two "Somethings" cancel each other out and leave a net of "Nothing" after all.

As for trying to make her understand your perspective, remember that there is "Jewish" the people and "Jewish" the religion. The Jewish people created a 3,000 year old civilization which has a rich and glorious history. The Jewish religion is part of that civilization, but it's the part that has made it possible for the civilization to survive for these past 3,000 years. Obviously, it's deeply meaningful to be part of something bigger than yourself, and it's not so meaningful to your friend.

Be strong, and don't lose hope.

Correction

Author: Susan (---.milwaukee.k12.wi.us)
Date: 07-24-01 09:00

A.S. I meant to write that it's obviously meaningful <B> to <I> you </i> </b> to be part of something bigger than yourself. By the way, isn't it possible that it might also be meaningful to any children you might have?

AS - comment made in subject 94

Author: jan (---.proxy.aol.com)
Date: 07-24-01 22:09

You are right about christmas. it is more then eating and exchangeing gifts with family & friends. Christmas is & always will be the celebration of the birth of jesus. Deep down your girlfriend realizes this and subconsciously participating in the holidays means she has not totally disconnected.As for you, maybe particiapating in Catholic holidays makes you feel as if eveything you beleive in is not the truth. If so you have no reason to feel that was.There is a good chance both the Jewish and Catholic religion can be considered right. Could you consider that Yshua the Jewish Messiah and jesus are one and the same. Both Jews and Catholic alike are waiting for the return of the Messiah. Maybe he is waiting for us to unite be comes again. Keep this in mind the next time your asked to a catholic holiday celebration.

No Missionizing Please!

Author: Benjamin (---.tnt5.bos2.da.uu.net)
Date: 07-24-01 22:16

No missionizing on this site please! Without even getting into the theological fallacies of the last poster's comments (which are numerous), I would ask the editors to take a strong stand against this kind of activity and delete all such offensive postings as expeditiously as possible. This site is supposed to be primarily for interfaith families who wish to raise their children as Jews, not for people peddling some sort of Christianity masquerading as a hybrid religion.

benjamin

Author: jan (---.proxy.aol.com)
Date: 07-25-01 20:24

Sorry if you were offended, but you totally missed my point. I am not a missionary, nor am I trying to convert anyone to the christian religion. I have been in an successful interfaith marriage for many years. Thankfully, both my husband and I always had a respect for each others religion. Neither one of us have ever had a problem attending religous holiday celebrations of the opposite faith. What I stated in my posting was merely a suggestion to help develope, if not respect, at least a level of tolerence for anothers religion.It was meant as only a suggestion for anyone participating in an interfaith relationship, who is having a problem dealing with the different religion of their parrtner. An interfaith relationship without respect and tolerence will only end in unhappiness for all involved.
The term interfaith family to me means learning how to deal with being a part of a family consisting of more then one religion. Raising your children in one religion,yet allowing them to respect the other. I don't think the editor saw my posting as being offensive. As an editor of an interfaith magazine, she is open to all views.
Benjamin, if you are planning on participating in an interfaith relationship, try being more open minded.

Benjamin

Author: Susan (---.milwaukee.k12.wi.us)
Date: 07-25-01 23:21

I see no evidence that Benjamin is intolerant of Christians. All he has objected to is the way some Christians show up on these Jewish boards arguing for "Yshua the Jewish Messiah" and otherwise trying to pass off their brand of Christianity as Judaism. Of course they always swear up and down that they're not missionaries. You would not offend Jews if you would just be honest about it. What you have is not an interfaith marriage, but a Christian marriage, so you would do better to take your comments to a Christian childrearing board.

Message Number 100

Author: Susan (---.milwaukee.k12.wi.us)
Date: 07-26-01 08:07

Message Number 100 is to "jan."

Echoing Susan

Author: Benjamin (---.ma.us.prserv.net)
Date: 07-26-01 20:15

Jan,

You say I've totally missed your point. But you did say "Could you consider that Yshua the Jewish Messiah and jesus are one and the same". "Yeshua" is not the "Jewish Messiah" except among so-called "Messianic Jews", "Hebrew-Christians", "Jews for Jesus", etc. Every Christian I know who is familiar with the name "Jeshua" understands it to be "one and the same" with Jesus. The difference in messianic concept between Judaism and Christianity is more than mere semantics.

If you don't understand normative Judaism to be Judaism (or simply don't understand normative Judaism), then this really isn't the site for you. It's not a matter of open-mindedness or respect or tolerance. I have many conversations with my Christian friends in a spirit of mutual respect. But we each know where the other is really coming from and therefore can have real respect and really get something out of the conversations.

Again, I would ask the editors to take a strong stand against such postings. In the past, they have deleted postings that were far less offensive to Jews and Judaism. I assume they would agree that "Jeshua the Jewish Messiah" has no place on this web site.

Echoing Benjamin

Author: Susan (---.milwaukee.k12.wi.us)
Date: 07-26-01 20:42

Besides, Jews are not waiting for the "return" of the Jewish Messiah, because the Jewish Messiah has not yet appeared for the first time.

Susan

Author: jan (---.proxy.aol.com)
Date: 07-26-01 21:00

I don't know how many missionaries have posted messages on this board and I really don't care to know. All I have to say is I am not a Missionary. Why do you make it sound as if my husband and I are a couple of religious nuts, not to be taken seriously, because of the religion we choose to raise our children. Yes our children were raised as catholics. They were also raised to respect the Jewish religion and all other religions. They were not raised to think it was wrong to participate in Jewish celebrations or to attend a Jewish religious service. We would have raised them to show the same respect for other religions if they had been raised Jewish.
This is an interfaith board. It is important that it includes not only the views of people of the Jewish faith, but all faiths. When raising your children in the religion of your choice, don't you want them to know what the other parent believes in and why.If planning to raise a child as if he were not in an interfaith family, most likely the best thing to do is marry a person of your own faith. I feel Benjamin over reacted. I am offended by both of you being so defensive. My message was for both jewish and catholic believers equally. I meant no harm, lighten up !

recent discussion

Author: jeanne (---.jacksonville.net)
Date: 07-26-01 21:52

I am offended by the whole anti-Christian tone of this discussion and this site in general. It's not really interfaith, but pro-Jewish no matter what the faith background of the parents. How do I get off the email list for this discussion. I have read enough.

This discussion is getting off topic.

Author: Susan (---.milwaukee.k12.wi.us)
Date: 07-26-01 23:35

Jeanne:

If you are receiving emails you don't want, you can delete them. If you've gotten onto some email list you don't want to be on any more, you can email the editor or list administrator and ask them to take you off.

Jan:

Relax. No one has accused you of being a nut. Being a Christian is not being a nut. I have Christian relatives. Some of my best friends are Christians, and they have never accused me of intolerance. I have been thanked by a Catholic for helping her grow in her faith. Shucks, I even attended Mass today, for a funeral in the family. Yes, now I am getting defensive, whereas in previous posts I was not. You were. See, I told you this discussion was getting off topic.

The only thing Benjamin or I have accused you of is disregarding the directive of this discussion, which is <B> Please post your comments on raising children <I> as Jews </i> in <I> interfaith </i> families. </b> I am willing to give you the benefit of the doubt and presume that you did not realize this is supposed to be a discussion of Jewish childrearing. If you insist that teaching your children to believe in Yehoshua (or JC or whatever you want to call that guy) is raising them <I> as Jews, </i> then I will accuse you of false advertising.

Editor:

Will you now please heed Benjamin's request and delete this thread?

I agree

Author: Annie (---.tnt2.newark.nj.da.uu.net)
Date: 07-26-01 23:38

<<I am offended by the whole anti-Christian tone of this discussion and this site in general. It's not really interfaith, but pro-Jewish no matter what the faith background of the parents. How do I get off the email list for this discussion. I have read enough. >>

I agree.

This conversation board has deteriorated into a atmosphere of "You-obviously-don't-understand-Jews-so-just-shut-up" - and I find that a very wrong feeling for an Interfaith board to have.

If you read Jan's message carefully, if you assume the best and try to keep an open mind, you will see that she was NOT witnessing. As an active non-Jewish partner in an Interfaith family, I find this whole dismissal of Jan's point out of hand small minded and not very helpful to the general tone of discussion.

Why is it wrong to ask ourselves WHAT constitutes the Messiah/Moshiac? Why is it wrong to question traditions that have come before and reevaluate the meaning they have in our lives both in a religious and in a cultural way? This is what I feel Jan was proposing - that she and her husband are trying to look beyond the "hows' of their religions and are trying to decipher what their core beliefs are, as presented by their own religions.

A bigger question on this board must be asked - Why must any mention of Jesus be taken as some kind of alter call? In a Christian/Jewish interfaith family that name may just come up sometimes, and there's nothing wrong with discussing it.

I'm sure someone will respond that to use the "J" word is a red flag to many Jews, but I repeat - this is an INTERFAITH board. For the most part the two major religions represented here are Judaism and Christianity and Jesus or a mention of the Messiah is bound to come up - c'mon guys, it's the CENTRAL POINT of so many religions! We have to be able to use words and not be accused of prostylizing. If anyone is so precious that they can't take part in an open discussion on interfaith issues, maybe this isn't the place to be. It's an INTERFAITH board, not an inter-CULTURAL board, religion will happen.

There are many different interpretations of the message of Jesus - many people who consider themselves devout Christians are unsure about the divinity of Jesus. I, along with many others who were raised in various Christian sects, consider the main message of the Jesus-centered texts to be one of divinity within ALL people - that WE are the messiahs and that we must all work together to bring "The world to come" - this is not anti-Jewish, or even antithetical to traditional Jewish beliefs.

What is understandable in a historical context, but difficult to accept given our modern open society with free exchange of ideaas, is the lack of understanding of the breadth of interpretation within the Christian community. Many of my Jewish friends lump all non-Jews raised in a Christian tradition together as some kind of quasi-Catholic or - in the words of Harold Kushner, "Protestant-just-because-everyone-else-in-town-is-protestant." Both views are ignorant and, given the amount of information available in an open interfaith dialogue, a little offensive.

Believe me, I'm not saying that Jews should accept Jesus (I don't even know what that means, I certainly don't find it a valid concept in my own life...) But I think it would raise the level of discussion (NOT debate) on these boards to try to approach comments from non-Jews with an open mind and an open heart. I understand the fear of witnessing by subterfuge, and folks who think they will 'win' a soul to their side in this way aren't really welcomed here and would be asked to leave pronto. However, I do not think that was Jan's intention, and I find the absolute refusal to see her post in any but the worst light unfortunate. C'mon Susan and Ben, everyone in the world doesn't think like you do.

This is an INTERFAITH board. You may not want to acknowledge it, but in THOUSANDS of different ways interfaith couples are loving and fighting and having children and building lives and creating sacred places in their homes - just like everyone else. They don't have to do it the way you want them to, and they don't have to get your permission.

I'm working with a Lutheran friend to put together a seminar for Jews called, "The 'J' Word" that would explain - in a non-threating manner - the history of Christianity - the bloody battles between different sects, the discrimination as well as the positive aspects. We want to put together a sister-seminar called - of course - "The J-word" for her congregation that would be an overview of the history of the Jews and the structure of modern Judiasm. Education is a wonderful bridge builder. I suggest you build a bridge and get over the fact that interfaith couples who are committed to a spiritual life are making it work.

Can't we just calm down the diatribe and try to open a dialogue? The first step is to assume that the folks who write in to this board are working toward the same goal - fulfilling and healthy INTERFAITH relationships.

defensive susan

Author: kay (---.tnt2.newark.nj.da.uu.net)
Date: 07-26-01 23:47

susan, you have seemed very defensive to me. i don't understand why, but you sound very angry in your posts. i think you scare people off from posting. i have not posted because i have been a little worried about your response.

kb

you also seem to have an inordinate amount of time on your hands.

Benjamin

Author: jan (---.proxy.aol.com)
Date: 07-27-01 00:03

My first message was dirrected to As. Since I have not yet heard from him, it makes me think you and he may be one and the same person. I am glad you are able to have friendships with Christians, but friendships with people of a different religion and interfaith relationships which may lead to marriage to people of different religions are two seperate matters. You will not be exposed to the others religion as closely or on a daily basis with friends. If you were to marry someone who was Christian, would you be able to attend their religious functions? If you expect them to understand and respect your religion by participating in it, you would have to be able to do the same for them. Children of interfaith marriages are usually raised in the religion of the parent who is closes to their religion.However it is very important that these childsren learn about the religion of the other parent.Respect is the key word here. Jeanne was affend by the anti-Christian tones of the discussion.I'm sure that was not what Susan and you intended. This site should be used to bring people of different religions together, to try to understand each other and our beleifs.We don't want to turn anyone off.

Are we going to allow name-calling here?

Author: Susan (---.milwaukee.k12.wi.us)
Date: 07-27-01 00:11

Calling people "small minded" and implying that they can't read carefully or that they are ignorant or intolerant or unwilling to share the planet with people who disagree with them is not a constructive form of discourse. I did in fact read what Jan wrote, and in her first post, I found the words "Both Jews and Christians are waiting for the return of the Messiah." Now, perhaps this was not the central point she was trying to make, but it is as false a statement as "Both Christians and Hindus pray to the elephant-headed god Ganesha," and as such needed to be corrected. Anybody who wants to believe in Jesus or Ganesha or Ahuru Mazdu or whomever certainly has my permission. The point I have been trying to make (and I hope Kay, Annie, Jeanne, Jan, and the editor are reading carefully now) is that people do not generally appreciate being told that they think or believe something which they do not in fact think or believe.

correction

Author: Susan (---.milwaukee.k12.wi.us)
Date: 07-27-01 00:18

Lest people think I sound arrogant, let me correct that to say that anyone who wants to worship JC or Ganesha or Ahuru Mazda has my respect and my whole-hearted moral support. I just read Jan's message to Benjamin and I want her to know that I do appreciate her intelligent and non-inflammatory tone.

Jan, a clarification

Author: A.S. (209.10.219.---)
Date: 07-27-01 13:27

This is A.S, from a few posts down the list. Just wanted to say I am not Benjamin, he is not me, and I don't think anyone here is trying to play tricks or sabotage anyone. But I do know that in the course of a few days, this message post has taken a turn for the worse, and has completely strayed from its original purpose, which is to provide support and answer questions for people who have serious questions about the challenges of interfaith family, and who are going through personal periods of growth and struggle.

Maybe we can remember that and try to stay focused.

Peace.

Jan, a clarification

Author: A.S. (209.10.219.---)
Date: 07-27-01 13:27

This is A.S, from a few posts down the list. Just wanted to say I am not Benjamin, he is not me, and I don't think anyone here is trying to play tricks or sabotage anyone. But I do know that in the course of a few days, this message post has taken a turn for the worse, and has completely strayed from its original purpose, which is to provide support and answer questions for people who have serious questions about the challenges of interfaith family, and who are going through personal periods of growth and struggle.

Maybe we can remember that and try to stay focused.

Peace.

Jan

Author: Susan (---.milwaukee.k12.wi.us)
Date: 07-27-01 16:17

Yes, you are right that I didn't intend anything anti-Christian. Too bad some people don't know the difference between being pro-Jewish and anti-Christian. It's nice to know that at least someone reads what I write. Thank you for doing so. Even though you may use some of the same language as these dishonest missionaries, I now trust that you are not one of them.

If you are interested in what our religion's concept of Messiah really is, I recommend the following page:

http://www.jewfaq.org/moshiach.htm

And to get back on topic (PLEASE!), I would recommend that site (go there and check their home page) to anyone who wants to learn about what raising children Jewishly entails.

Susan

Author: JB (---.jacksonville.net)
Date: 07-27-01 16:32

And the opposite is true too. Being pro-Christian is not anti-Jewish.

Author: kay (---.tnt2.newark.nj.da.uu.net)
Date: 07-27-01 16:51

<<Even though you may use some of the same language as these dishonest missionaries.>>

who exactly do you consider a "dishonest missionary" on this board? that's quite an accusation to make.

kb

interfaith

Author: Lauren (---.proxy.aol.com)
Date: 07-27-01 17:00

I am the daughter of a Christian mother and Jewish father. I was raised with a hybrid religious education, celebrating both holidays and never being really Jewish or Christian.
After a long spiritual quest, I have chosen Judaism as my religion, which has consequently isolated my mother from my life. She and I cannot have the same relationship as when I was simply "Judeo-Christian". My choice has hurt her deeply, and the idea that her only child is now a Jew has left her devastated. You see, it was fine for her to have a mildly observant Jewish husband who respected her religion and holidays. But she has never accepted that her own child is not like her. Nor has her side of the family accepted me as a Jew. They make disparaging remarks about my choice. I implore anyone considering marrying outside the faith to consider the effects of intermarriage on a child. You know who you are and so does your mate, but your children's journey towards discovering their religious identity will be incredibly difficult. I have lost half of my family's love and support. My mother and father barely speak to each other now, and my mother blames my father for influencing my choice. The holidays are sad occasions in my family now. I know that I made the right decision, but it was a bitter and painful price to pay.

Lauren

Author: jan (---.proxy.aol.com)
Date: 07-27-01 17:42

I do understand your making a choice between the two religions. What made up your mind to pick one over the other? I am Catholic and my husband is Jewish. We chose to raise our children catholic. However, this has not prevented them from bering willing to participate in Jewish holiday celebrations. Why are you unable to at least join in on your moms Catholic celebrations? Don't you think your mom deserves that respect. Why do you feel you can't do this? Correct me if I'm wrong, but according to the Jewish religion the children are the religion of the mother.This may be why your mother is so hurt. Does choosing Judaism mean becomeing Anti-Christian? Is it impossible to practice Judaism and still have respect for the Catholic religion? I find this very upsetting.

What Lauren Said

Author: Benjamin (---.ma.us.prserv.net)
Date: 07-27-01 18:15

Lauren can respond for herself--so I don't want to put words in her mouth. But it seems to me that she never said or implied anything about being "anti-Christian" or not "joining in on her mom's Catholic celebrations" or not "having respect for the Catholic religion." For that matter, Lauren never even said that her mother was Catholic, only that her mother was Christian. I wonder if Jan is reading into this based on her own negative experiences.

What Lauren said was that the Christian side of her family, including her mother, had big problems accepting her decision to embrace Judaism and even has made disparaging remarks.

as

Author: jan (---.proxy.aol.com)
Date: 07-27-01 18:24

When I read yor posting to susan, I did see your struggle. May be I should have asked a question rather then make a statement. I truely do want to help.I'll ask the question now. Does participation in Christian celebration such as Christmas cause you to feel disloyal to your Jewish faith?

to jan

Author: A.S. (209.10.219.---)
Date: 07-27-01 19:48

I don't think that celebrating Christmas would make me feel disloyal, as much as it would be a failure to propogate and instill the values I grew up with. My girlfriend, or I should say now, ex-girlfriend, and I went to her house for Christmas dinner a few times, her mother gave me a stocking and presents the next morning. I truly appreciated that she thought enough to go include me in her family's holiday, just as my parents would buy my girlfriend Hannkah presents and include her in a (very stressful) Passover seder.

Christmas doesn't mean anything to me. It's as meaningless to me as Kwanzaa or the Chinese New Year (on a personal level...not that I think those holidays aren't important to their respective clientele.) To me, celebrating a holiday that has no meaning to me completely undermines and contradicts the purpose of the holiday to begin with.

benjamin

Author: jan (---.proxy.aol.com)
Date: 07-27-01 23:09

Stop being a Ned-Picker. Come now! Christian or Catholic. Maybe I should have just said believer in Jesus. Sorry if I read into Lauren's posting too deeply. I should not have assumed that Lauren no longer celebrated the Christian holidays. Its plain to see her mother is hurting deeply. She may feel her daughter can no longer participate freely at Christian celebrations.She may also feel abandoned. Her mother daughter relationship torn apart. Choosing to isolate before feeling isolated herself.The family is also hurt, but that is no excuse for disrespect and prejudice. Is it alright with you Benjamin if I voice my opinion.? By the way Benjamin, You are a Negative Experience!

AS

Author: jan (---.proxy.aol.com)
Date: 07-27-01 23:33

You stated your family was stressed out because your girlfriend attended their Passover seder. Excuse me, but I don't understand why? Did your girlfriend act in a disrepectful manner? Did she offend them? You also spoke of how you would want to instill the values you grow up with on to your children. Does this include prejudice, because thats what this sounds like. I hope I'm wrong. I really want to be wrong.

If you loved your girlfriend just being with her at an occassion which made her happy and sharing the experience, should have made you also feel this happiness. Even though it isn't your religious chose. The same goes for your X girlfriend.

Author: Becky (---.austin.navipath.net)
Date: 07-28-01 02:03

A.S. writes: "To me, celebrating a holiday that has no meaning to me completely undermines and contradicts the purpose of the holiday to begin with. "

But if you are with your friend attending holiday celebrations that are outside of your personal faith, are you not there for your friend and not yourself? Clearly your friend's family didn't expect you to celebrate Christmas - they didn't want you to feel left out. Attending a holiday with a friend to show caring and support (which is what you are doing when you attend) is not the same as "celebrating" that holiday. I don't think you were undermining anything. I don't see that a spouse or a child who has chosen a different religion is doing anything contradictory either by "attending" rather than "celebrating" a different religious event.

sad occasions

Author: annie (---.tnt2.newark.nj.da.uu.net)
Date: 07-28-01 10:59

<<The holidays are sad occasions in my family now. I know that I made the right decision, but it was a bitter and painful price to pay. >>

Dear Lauren,

I'm so sorry to hear this - you're right, the holidays should be happy (or at least peaceful) times, and it's very sad when they're the opposite. I know of many families that struggle to find common ground around the holiday season - it's often a time when so many old feelings come out, and the extra sensitivity that comes with a religious passion or strong cultural feeling sometimes only strenghtens the hurt feelings. Some of the most heated family situations I know revolving around holiday angst aren't necessarily interfaith related - it can just be a difficult time, period.

I hope that as time passes you're able to find a way to reconcile your own choice with the image your family holds of you - this is a difficult point of passage for many of us, whether we're involved in an interfaith family or not! Best of luck!

Annie

Jan

Author: A.S. (---.dialsprint.net)
Date: 07-28-01 19:35

I'm sorry, it's very hard to infer one's tone from email, but it seems like you are digging for something to be offended by, both in your responses to me, and to others here on the message board.

Let me clarify: The seder was stressful to me and my girlfriend because we had had discussions prior to the seder about our differences which already added a layer of tension. It was the first time we had participated as a couple in a Jewish holiday, other than Hannukah, not to mention that it was with my entire family. My family was thrilled to have her there. I was thrilled to have her there. It was only stressful because we both knew that Judaism was not something that could be dealt with once or twice a year, but rather is a large part of my life which she needs to be a part for us to be together.

I take offense at the suggestion that prejudice and intolerance are values which I wish to instill in my children. Surely you were merely looking for drama, and as I like to say, "Save the drama for your mama."

No need to reply, I think I'll look for advice from other members of this message board.

Jan

Author: A.S. (---.dialsprint.net)
Date: 07-28-01 19:35

I'm sorry, it's very hard to infer one's tone from email, but it seems like you are digging for something to be offended by, both in your responses to me, and to others here on the message board.

Let me clarify: The seder was stressful to me and my girlfriend because we had had discussions prior to the seder about our differences which already added a layer of tension. It was the first time we had participated as a couple in a Jewish holiday, other than Hannukah, not to mention that it was with my entire family. My family was thrilled to have her there. I was thrilled to have her there. It was only stressful because we both knew that Judaism was not something that could be dealt with once or twice a year, but rather is a large part of my life which she needs to be a part for us to be together.

I take offense at the suggestion that prejudice and intolerance are values which I wish to instill in my children. Surely you were merely looking for drama, and as I like to say, "Save the drama for your mama."

No need to reply, I think I'll look for advice from other members of this message board.

As

Author: jan (---.proxy.aol.com)
Date: 07-28-01 23:23

I'm not looking for words to be offended by, nor am I looking to offend anyone on this message board. I guess we all have to clarify what we write on this board by giving background info.Without the full picture words can sometimes be misinterpreted. Example: and include her in a (very stressful) Passover seder. Without background this can be misinterpreted. You did notice I said "I hope I"m wrong." Can you give some background to explain why Christmas celebration or any other religions celebrations besides your own would cause a failure to you to propogate and instill the values you grew up with into your children? I just don't agree with your line of thinking. Most likely your a nice guy. Interfaith is not for everyone. It most definitely is not for you. Find youself a nice Jewish girl and propogate.

instilling values

Author: Susan (---.milwaukee.k12.wi.us)
Date: 07-29-01 23:10

I hope people had an easy fast.

Jan asked AS how celebrating Christian holidays can interfere with transmitting Jewish values. Here are two simple examples. Judaism believes in one God and only one God. Both Christmas and Easter incorporate the belief that Jesus is also God. Judaism also has very strict rules about what we may or may not eat, especially during Passover. These rules incorporate the values of self-discipline, kindness to animals, spiritual purity, obedience to God's will as explained in the Bible, ecological responsibility, and others. To eat a non-kosher holiday meal is to violate Biblical commandments and to demonstrate that one does not take these Jewish values seriously.

Author: Lauren (---.proxy.aol.com)
Date: 07-30-01 10:20

I must address Jan's comments that in choosing Judaism I have rejected my mother. I have not rejected her as my mother. She is not Catholic, as you said, but Protestant. I do participate fully in all Christian celebrations and support her at all times. She does not support me, however. Nor does my non-Jewish boyfriend of 5 years, who knew me when i was not "so Jewish". I am not at all "anti-Christian", I just do not believe in Christianity. I never deny my mother's heritage. I would also like to applaud Jay for helping this young girl learn about her Jewish heritage. I felt deprived of learning about mine for so many years and am now playing "catch up". Thank you, Becky for your support. I find that being raised with both religions was more problematic than anyone can imagine. .

Author: Lauren (---.proxy.aol.com)
Date: 07-30-01 10:22

Annie and Benjamin, I forgot to thank you both for your comments.

musings

Author: husband (---.jacksonville.net)
Date: 07-30-01 11:26

I have been married for 15 years to a wonderful Christian woman. It is possible to celebrate Christian holidays and still be a Jew. I have long "celebrated" Christmas, but not because I believe in Jesus' divinity, but because it is important to my wife whom I love very much. If she makes a big Easter dinner for her family and it happens to fall during Passover I stick with vegetables and salad. I don't have to eat anything leavened. I have a strong Jewish identity and know that G-d knows where my heart is when I "celebrate" Christian traditions. My wife has a strong Christian identity and is able to "celebrate" Jewish feasts with respect and honor. I believe G-d knows where her heart is also. There seems to be a lot of talk witnessing or missionizing on this website, but I don't believe any of us should be threatened or feel defensive when confronted by other beliefs. I am not so easily converted. If a Christian states that Jesus is the Messiah than we should respect that belief as that person should respect mine when I state that there is no personal messiah. Those are tenets of a religion, not necessarily an attempt to convert anyone. Having been exposed to Christianity for a long time though, I do know that mainstream Christianity does belive in one G-d. Jesus is not separate in their minds, but a part of the one G-d. I was amused to see how naive most of us Jews are when it comes to the tenets of other faiths. I call it pride, my wife sometimes refers to it as a touch of arrogance (smile). In regards to raising children in an interfaith family, it goes without saying it is difficult and there may be identity issues. Of course, my boys wouldn't be here if it weren't for my wife. Respect and honor should always be the hallmark in questions about faith. I hope that I am able to instill a deep Jewish identity in my boys that will be a compass to them as they journey in life, but I know that ultimately, I am only a part in their ultimate relationship with G-d. That would be true if my wife also was Jewish. I think that if you are already in an interfaith relationship than relax and be creative. There are so many great parts of Judaism than you can share with your spouse. The more your non-Jewish spouse respects your faith, the less problems you will have in raising your children Jewish. If your considering an interfaith relationship, consider the long term. Consider that the other person may never convert and in fact may turn to the religion of their youth even if they have no religion at all now. Consider carefully the sacrifices that will be made and how you will deal with things like holidays, family functions, or religious education. How much do you love this person? I cannot imagine my life without her. I choose to honor her by being supportive of her faith and she in turn is supportive of mine. In fact, she honors me by choosing to raise the boys Jewish even though I know she struggles at an inner level with that decision. Sorry the post is long. I haven't been here before but I noticed my wife had and I was touched that she was seeking advice in how to better raise our children.

InterfaithFamily.com Editor wrote:
-------------------------------
Please post your comments on raising children as Jews in interfaith families.

Author: Becky (198.236.22.---)
Date: 07-30-01 13:09

To "husband,"

Thank you so much for posting! Your message was wonderful.

Susan

Author: jan (---.proxy.aol.com)
Date: 07-30-01 18:42

Thank you for answering my question Why Christian holiday celebrations can interfere with transmitting jewish values. I understand and respect what you
said. I apologize if I have offeded and I would like to clarify my questions. I am in contact with what I call Ultra-Reform Jews. They do not go to synagogue, do not turn away from eating pork and keep kosha only during Passover.These same people are disturbed by a christmas tree, offended by Christian sybols, and refused to enter a Christian church even if it's just to attend a wedding ceremony.

As for Christians beleif in God. Christians believe in one God. God the Father, the Son (being God in human form, Jesus) and the Holy Spirit (the resurrection of the Son. To Christians God , Jesus and the Holy spirit are One. In the Jewish religion, you are waiting for the Messiah to come for the first time. Is it believed that he will come in human form?

stepkids...not Jewish

Author: Elie (---.cpinternet.com)
Date: 07-30-01 18:51

1) Right on, husband... I concur wholeheartedly with your priorities, and your advice to relax and be creative.

2) I'll be helping to raise 2 stepchildren before long. Their mom is Catholic, I am Jewish. Their family connectedness and mental health is the most important thing, not *my* ego. So they'll be raised Christian, as their extended family desires, and everyone who wishes to will be able to enjoy my Judaism and my liberal Jewish practice in our home... with my wife and kids at my side.

3) I'm looking forward to joining them all in family gatherings at Christmas and Easter... since I am a Jew by choice, I already know the tunes :-)

4) Should the kids decide to explore a commitment to being Jewish when they are older, I hope I could be a nice resource for them. Otherwise, I'm dedicated to their having wonderful and meaningful lives, and helping them grow up into terrific, healthy people, just as I would if they were already Jewish.

Getting the priorities straight is the biggest step, for me. I'm very happy to have the opportunity for us all to be part of each other's lives.

Reply to Jan (# 134)

Author: BobP (159.53.32.---)
Date: 07-30-01 19:05

Jan - I'll take a stab at some of this.

First you said <<and keep kosha only during Passover>>
The word here is Kosher, which means ritually fit (or pure). It is also referred to as kashrut. Many food items sold around that time will specifically state "Kosher for Passover" as there are specific rules for this time, more "stringent" than at other times of the year.

Now, Jews who eat pork, do not attend synagogue, etc. but are "offended" by Christian symbols are somehow trying to convince someone (themselves perhaps) that they are "Good Jews". Except for the Orthodox, I think that most Jews would attend a celebration in a Church for friends (such as a wedding). Most would NOT partcipate in any Christian rite, such as a sign of the cross, or kneeling.

As to the belief in the Messiah, the "official" viewpoint of the Reform movement is that there will not be an indivdual person, but there will be a messianic age.

The Orthodox and I believe Conservative movements believe that the messiah will come, he will be a desendant of Kind David, and will be completely human. There is no basis in Judiasm for a "devine" messiah. There is no point in our discussing any belief in "trinity" of God; this is not possible in Jewish beliefs.

Just so you know a bit of my background, I am Jewish, Intermarried to a Christian (Catholic) for over 25 years. What I have stated here is what I have learned on various boards over the last several months.

Author: Becky (198.236.22.---)
Date: 07-30-01 19:10

To "husband" or anyone else who can respond:

I shared "husband"'s post with my husband, who agreed with much of it. His question was, how do you celebrate or be involved with Christmas and/or Easter, and not confuse your Jewish children? That is, when visiting family, etc. - we're assuming Christmas and Easter is not celebrated in the home. However, if it is acknowledged in a Jewish home, how much do you acknowledge and celebrate? I realize this is a whole new ball of wax, but I sure find it easier to talk about this topic now than in the thick of it with carols coming over every loudspeaker. Our concern is confusing kids. Any child development experts out there?

ignore posting, testing software

Author: IFF editors (---.ne.mediaone.net)
Date: 12-18-01 13:25

ignore posting, testing software

Please don't leave us hanging!

Author: Susan (---.as6.nwbl0.wi.voyager.net)
Date: 01-11-02 14:03

Mr. Keen:

After all that build-up, I think it was unfair of you not to tell us your answer to Gabby's question ("What is God?"). Frankly, I don't remember any more what answers I gave my children when they were little, but then I didn't publish an article on the internet about the discussion, and you did. As I read your article, I thought of how I would want to answer the question if anyone asked. You've inspired me to raise the question at the dinner table tonight. But if the purpose of the article was to help parents solve the problem of figuring out what to tell their own children, I think you could have been more helpful. Or if you're too embarrased about what you said to repeat it, you could be candid. If nothing else, you could satisfy your readers' curiosity.

What is God?

Author: Jim Keen (---.wanarb01.mi.comcast.net)
Date: 01-11-02 22:48

Hi Susan,

In the 3rd to last paragraph, I summed up what I told my daughter about God. There is only one God. God is everywhere. God is a loving God. I also explained that I decided not to mention how Jesus fits in during this go round. Because she is only 5 years old, I kept it simple. Besides, I didn't think this article was the appropriate place for a detailed discussion on my perspective of God. I was only relating the experience I had in telling her. I feel it is up to the reader to decide how to explain his or her unique views on God.

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