Should Rabbis Officiate At Interfaith Weddings - Page 1

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Interfaith Weddings

Author: The Editors (---.ne.mediaone.net)
Date: 05-18-00 12:40

Do you think rabbis should perform marriages for interfaith couples? If so, should they impose any conditions?

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Author: Ronnie (---.home.net)
Date: 05-25-00 11:40

I think that if a couple wants a Jewish wedding ceremony, then that shows a leaning toward Judaism. This leaning should be reinforced by a warm welcome and a rabbi willing to marry them. This kind of response could turn a mild leaning toward Judaism into a more serious commitment.

Often, couples are not that religiously committed when they marry. It is the birth of a child that for many stimulates a wish for religious connections. If a couple has been warmly welcomed when they married, then there is a greater likelihood that they will turn to that religion later in their married life.

So, I think it is in the best interests of the Jewish people that rabbis do perform intermarriages. I believe that it is a way to keep those who do intermarry--and there are so many who do--linked to Judaism.

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Author: Dave (---.proxy.aol.com)
Date: 06-03-00 23:37

How can a rabbi conducting an interfaith wedding impose 'conditions'? Since he is disobeying Jewish Law where does he get off imposing any conditions on the paying couple. The only condition should be that the couple pay the bill

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Author: Alicia (---.s134.tnt1.lnh.md.dialup.rcn.com)
Date: 06-04-00 17:48

As a Catholic engaged to a Jew (we just started pre-Cana counseling), I feel very strongly that when rabbis feel in good conscience that they can perform interfaith marriage ceremonies they should do so. If they can not do so in good conscience, they should bow out and allow someone who is willing to do. Engaged couples should be willing to accept this --after all, would you really want to be married by someone who was opposed to your relationship.
When I first became exposed to this issue, I was not even engaged yet. An Episcopalian friend was having trouble finding a Rabbi willing to marry her and her Jewish fiance. The rabbi at her fiance's conservative shul opted completely out of the process. Eventually, she located a few likely rabbis and had a lovely ceremony co-officiated by her minister. They appear to have no regrets.
My own search for clergy to co-officiate was much easier because my fiance is less religious than my friend's was and thus, he had no adult relationship with the Rabbi at his family's shul. Nonetheless, we were very aware of the congregation's policy on interfaith marriage and while we do not support it, we respected the Rabbi's position enough not to discomfit him by making him turn us down. We could (and did) go elsewhere in order to avoid an unneccessary conflict.
Of course, we live in a large enough metropolitan area that we had several choices as to clergy. And, furthermore, our request was granted by our "first choice", a Rabbi a friend highly recommended.
I realize that others may have reason to feel more resentment that their congregation's rabbi wouldn't perform their marriage. If we lived in a small town with limited choices or had a more difficult time finding the rabbi than we did, I would have been more inclined to say that there is a real impediment to having the ceremony desired. Nonetheless, many couples fly in rabbis, are married by cantors, or travel to other areas. As I said before, I can't see any rational couple wanting someone who strongly opposed their union to be the one consecrating it. there are so many other more palatable options.

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Author: Julie (---.mcit.com)
Date: 06-05-00 15:17

Regardless of a rabbis choice to officiate or not officiate, the overriding factor must be that the couple feels that both the Jewish and non-Jewish member of the relationship are welcomed by the Jewish community and faith. This is imperative for sustenance or growth of the Jewish people.
I am the non-Jewish member of our family. At the time my husband and I decided to get married, we approached his family reform rabbi to officiate at the ceremony. A resounding "no" was the answer. Not only was it resounding, but to both of us it was incredibly shallow and negative because we did not receive much explanation except that he didn't believe in it and wouldn't do it. This, of course, left me feeling very unwelcome, uncomfortable and excluded.
Luckily, we were not living in that town and began attending a reform synagogue in our area that was very welcoming to interfaith couples. They made us feel completely a part of everything in which we participated - which was actually quite a lot, including services. The cantor at this synagogue warmly accepted the officiation of our ceremony and worked with us to make both families feel welcome. Most of my family said it was the most meaningful wedding they had ever attended.
Regardless of what the clergy in either decision had decided, we would have incorporated traditions even if the family had to perform them. The difference is the feeling that we received from the communities and the rabbis. The synagogue in our area helped me to start feeling welcome and a part of the community. This in turn encouraged me to study even more about Judaism that I had.
After three years of marriage and five years of study, I am in the process of conversion. This time at a conservative synagogue that is very welcoming and accepting of interfaith couples. Feeling welcome has made all the difference to me in my pursuit and the relative speed with which I have come to this position (I grew up in a very fundamentalist Christian faith).
We will raise a Jewish family, keep Sabbath and continue a wonderful Jewish home for our children. I believe Hillel said treat others as you would yourself - this is Judaism - the rest is commentary. Put yourselves in the shoes of one who is willing to receive a faith, and at the very least raise their family in a faith that is not theirs, but is not welcome. Are you truly treating others as you would treat yourself?

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Author: Dave (---.proxy.aol.com)
Date: 06-11-00 00:49

I am curious. If you have been taught Judaism as part of your conversion process then you must have come across the opposition to intermarriage in Jewish Law. How do you deal with that opposition to the intermarriage you underwent?

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Interfaith Weddings

Author: Gigi (---.gth.logicon.com)
Date: 06-19-00 17:27

My daughter married a wonderful young man from a Catholic family last October. They made the decision to raise a Jewish family, but decided to have both a Rabbi and a priest participate in their wedding ceremony in order to honor both families. The ceremony was beautiful and meaningful. We were fortunate to have a Rabbi who believes in bringing the interfaith partner "into the fold" as "a friend of the folk." He works with an enlightened Catholic priest, who enhanced the ceremony. The couple married under a chuppah, signed a Ketubah, and stated publicly their choice to live a Jewish life. Their vows were in Hebrew, and they each broke a glass at the end of the ceremony. We were proud of our daughter and new son-in-law and very lucky to have a forward-thinking Rabbi and to belong to a congregation that embraces and welcomes Interfaith couples. This situation doesn't have to be a dilemma - but too many Rabbis make it difficult for young couples and create a situation that effectively pushes them away from Judaism. We don'tllive in shtetls any more - and our children interact within a pluralistic society. And some of them fall in love non-Jews. We need to welcome their non-Jewish partners into our midst and show them what a vibrant, rich, and beautiful culture they have entered. If we don't, we will chase them away.

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Officiating at Interfaith Marriages

Author: Jenny Genser (---.136.155.fns.usda.gov)
Date: 06-30-00 13:36

I am the child of a secular "interfaith" home -- a father who was raised an Orthodox Jew and became an agnostic, and a mother raised as a Methodist who is now a proud "secular humanist". In my family of atheists and agnostics, I am the "black sheep" and converted to Judaism under the auspices of the Conservative movement.

Back in 1989, I wanted to be married by a Rabbi but I wanted to give homage to my mother's heritage. Also, my fiance had Christian relatives. I had the widow of the Methodist minister who had married my parents in 1952 (and was a very close family friend) read a homily that her husband had written at my wedding ceremony. I can't remember if the original homily had any Christian references (as opposed to references to God), but if so, I had them struck out. I also married in a "neutral" site -- a charming country inn. In other respects, it was a Jewish wedding, with the Jewish blessings, the signing and witnessing of the Ketubah, the chuppah, the candles and wine, and the breaking of the glass.

The Rabbi had no problem with the old family friend (the widow of the minister) reading the homily -- he viewed it as a kindness to our families. So it is possible to incorporate some "non-Jewish" cultural features into a Jewish wedding.

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No respect...

Author: Ian B. Pinkus (---.spublib.brandeis.edu)
Date: 07-16-00 15:35

It seems to me from reading these posts that a majority of you hav absolutely no knowledge or respect for Jewish Law. Intermarriage is forbidden. Period. And tothose of yu who are in the process of conversion, pleasde find out from your rabbi whether or not everyone will accept your conversion. Chances are that with a conservative rabbi, you will be accepted by your shul, not the Jewish world.

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Re: No respect

Author: Henry B. (---.home.net)
Date: 07-25-00 11:28

Ian,

So long as one person is willing to perform a wedding ceremony between two people (conversion or no conversion), and those two people feel it is legit, then everyone else should be taking it on faith anyway. THAT is respect. Do you really ask to see the conversion certificates of every Jew you encounter??

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Author: m (---.kcc.com)
Date: 07-25-00 17:23

I agree with Henry B.

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Author: Dave (---.proxy.aol.com)
Date: 07-29-00 23:08

1/ Many rabbis now do ask to see the conversion certificates of the 2 mothers of the couple.

2/ You cannot take it on Jewish faith that a wedding is Jewishly legit if it is an interfaith marriage

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Interfaith Weddings

Author: R.S. (---.va.us.prserv.net)
Date: 09-03-00 20:39

I have found this discussion to be thoughtful. I respect the views of rabbis who place conditions or refuse to perform interfaith weddings as well as Mr. Pinkus's view opposing Jewish acceptance of intermarriage. However, I am glad that many of the postings cite cases where the wishes of the interfaith couple have been accomodated by a rabbi.

Again, I respect the Orthodox rejection of intermarriage and I acknowledge that very serious problem of assimilation, due only in part to intermarriage. However I'd point to Moses' marriage to Zipporah [daughter of Yitro (Jethro), a priest of Midian, for whom a Torah parsha is named] and Joseph's to Asenath [daughter of an Egyptian priest, mother of Manasseh and Ephraim--two of Israel's tribes] as cases where formal conversion to Judaism probably did not occur but the "intermarriages" and acceptance of matrilineal descent were important for the Jewish people. To this day, on Shabbat, observant Jewish fathers bless their sons to be like Manasseh and Ephraim--son's of an Egyptian priest's daughter.

And then there is the touching Book of Ruth. Ruth acquired a Jewish mother-in-law, Naomi, through intermarriage without converting. Only after being widowed from her Jewish husband and following her mother-in-law to Israel did she convert and remarry to become a forbear of King David.

Yes, these events occured long before the rabbinic era and Hallachic rules on conversion, but they point to a value of the Jewish people being open to those seeking to enter its family--even those not willing to formally convert or fully withdraw from their own religious heritages.

In my case, I am a Jew (as is my brother) despite being the product of an intermarriage with a non-Jewish mother. I formally converted under Conservative auspices shortly before my Bar Mitzvah. I married a non-Jew in a wedding officiated by a justice-of-the-peace since the available rabbi declined, but our wedding had elements of Jewish tradition. My wife and I are raising our children as Jews and have joined a Reform shul. While this may seem hopelessly watered down, assimilated, and invalid in Orthodox eyes, the fact is that the accomodation rather than rejection of intermarriage has led to at least two more generations of my family identifying as Jews, respecting Torah, lighting Shabbat candles, observing our festivals, and having feeling when saying the "Sh'ma."

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response to R.S.

Author: Ian B. Pinkus (---.spublib.brandeis.edu)
Date: 09-04-00 10:40

BS"D
I don't have much time so I will make this short and sweet. First of all, your sources are way off. Ysro did convert to Judaism under the auspices of Moshe and G-D. I think that's a pretty kosher beis din. However, since the Torah was not yet given, it is irrelevant. There was no such halachic process. Everyone became Jewish at Sinai, and the halacha started there.

As for performing mitzvos with "feling". You and your family are still not Jewish, so it doesn't matter if you think you are. Stop lying to youself and the rest of the jewish world.

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R.S. and Ian Pinkus

Author: Ed Case (---.home.net)
Date: 09-04-00 15:59

Dear R.S., I hope you are not at all deterred by Mr. Pinkus' posting. In the eyes of much of the Jewish world, as I'm sure you know, you and your family are Jewish.
Mr. Pinkus, your posting is hostile to the purposes of this website and I would respectfully ask you not to post on it. It does not say anywhere in the Torah that Jethro converted to Judaism. It's one thing to respectfully say that Orthodox Jews would not consider R.S. or his family to be Jewish. It's quite another, and unacceptable on this website, to accuse R.S. of lying or to consider the Orthodox to be the totality of the Jewish world.
Readers: I would like to hear directly from you at EdC@JFLmedia.com - we are considering making these bulletin boards open only after pre-registration and receiving a password, because of the continued hostile postings by people with views like Mr. Pinkus. What do you think? Would you register, get a password, and post? Are we better off tolerating the hostile postings? I'd like to know what you think.

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passwords

Author: Pam Zohar (208.187.153.---)
Date: 10-20-00 10:40

Please do not exclude Mr. Pinkus because you do not like his message. Granted, he could be somewhat more polite. What is the point of a discussion if you exclude all opposing views?
I converted through the auspices of the conservative movement. The rabbi had an orthodox smicha. The wedding included my father, who read a passage from the new testament about love, in retrospect, I wish a passage from the Hebrew Bible had been used instead.
We are not an interfaith couple. We are a Jewish couple. We had a wedding with chupah, and wine and the seven blessings and broke a wineglass (quite thouroughly). We signed our ketubah, and it hangs in our home. We observe Shabbat and keep a kosher home.
No matter how meaningful, emotional and beautiful a ceremony, a wedding between a Jew and a non-Jew is not a Jewish wedding. It is a legal marriage ceremony, however, certainly, and should be respected as the partners' choice.

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Interfaith relationships

Author: Johnny (---.s128.tnt4.atn.pa.dialup.rcn.com)
Date: 12-25-00 13:29

Dear Readers,

This question is one you'll surely seen or heard about time and time again. I am in a relationship with a non-Jewish Russian girl. I like her very much and we enjoy each other's company. However, my parent strongly object, and are voicing angry and rage over her not being Jewish. I will point out though that her father is Jewish and her non-Jewish mother had a Jewish father.

I respect and believe in my judaism and acknowledge our struggle to survive and live on. I believe in most Jewish ethics also. I need you honest answer though, should I marriage someone Jewish just because she is jewish, not because I like her or I feel comfortable with her. Tell me why? I've been seening her for a year, and feel happy around her all the time. Lately though, my parents are taking away the one thing that makes me happy, for no reason then the fact that she is not Jewish.

We should accept others into Judaism,, because they love and Jew and like a Jewish lifestyle in my opinion. A jew is not a different animal or creature or species, it is the religion someone is born into. Jews are still people, like christians and muslims, we just have a different religiion. Maybe intermarriage is not liked or preferred, but is seem it should be considered if both people in the relationship wish to live Jewish and wish to contribute to an already small Jeweish community and expand it.

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Interfaith relationships

Author: mpfreed (---.jakinternet.co.uk)
Date: 12-26-00 05:47

Dear Johnny,

You wrote "We should accept others into Judaism".

OK, so why can't your girl friend convert ??

Murray Freedman

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Author: Susan (---.milwaukee.k12.wi.us)
Date: 12-26-00 10:16

Johnny:

How could your parents possibly object to your girlfriend? What an appropriate question to be asking at Chanuka time! My nine-year-old has been singing a song, "Light One Candle" by Peter Yarrow which might contain the answer to your question. You should be able to find it in the folk music section of your local music store if you look under Peter, Paul, and Mary. The song tells eight reasons to light a candle (wisdom, compassion, solidarity, peace, etc) and then it goes on to ask 

What is the memory that's valued so highly that we keep it alive in that flame?
What's the commitment to those who have died when we cry out they've not died in vain?
We have come this far always believing that justice would somehow prevail.
This is the burden and this is the promise and this is why we will not fail.
Don't let the light go out
It's lasted for so many years . . . 

The Syrians weren't trying to destroy us physically; they only wanted to destroy our spiritual heritage. If your girlfriend is committed to living a Jewish life and keeping that "light" alive, then I think your parents should accept her. It's obvious they don't object to her on racial grounds if she has so many Jewish grandparents. But many people from Russia are very unreligious and have no interest in anything spiritual. Your parents are probably afraid that if you marry her, that "light" will go out and you will be the last Jew in your family.

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Marriage Ceremonies for a Jew marrying a Catholic

Author: Charles (---.tnt1.roswell.nm.da.uu.net)
Date: 01-27-01 13:24

I found the dialogue interesting, but here's another twist. My fiance is Catholic and I am Jewish. We often attend Synagogue on Friday and Mass on Sunday together: we both have a deep and abiding respect for our religions and spirituality. We are contemplating an inter-faith service with both a rabbi and a priest, but what about two ceremonies - one Jewish and one Catholic. Are there religious reasons why a Jew would not participate in a strictly Catholic ceremony and vice versa? I believe there likely are, but ...

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Religious reasons not to participate?

Author: InterfaithFamily.com Editor (---.home.net)
Date: 01-31-01 14:29

You raise and interesting question that is not entirely clear, because it isn't entirely clear what "religious reasons" means.

There certainly are Jews who get married in Catholic ceremonies and still remain and feel clearly Jewish. We are not familiar with all of the details of what a Catholic wedding ceremony involves, but we assume that it does not include an affirmation of belief in Catholic theology. If being married in a Catholic ceremony did include such an affirmation of belief, then that might be a "religious reason" for a Jew not to participate in a Catholic wedding -- such an affirmation presumably is inconsistent with being Jewish, certainly with the religious aspect of being Jewish.

There also are Catholics who get married in Jewish ceremonies. To our knowledge, there isn't anything in a Jewish ceremony that amounts to a negation of belief in Catholic theology. But we can't speak to "religious reasons" for a Catholic not to participate in a Jewish wedding.

What do our other readers think?

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Catholic Wedding

Author: Len (---.ptc.com)
Date: 01-31-01 20:17

Speaking only for myself I would have a hard time participating in a Catholic ceremony as a groom. If you have a traditional mass then the wedding will be between you, your husband, and Christ. Additionally there are sacrements that I as a Jew would find incompatible with my Judiasm. The Eucharist is fundamental to a Catholic ceremony and I don't see how it is compatible with Judiasm.

Ultimately you are probably better off with a Rabbi because as the editor noted there is nothing inherently incompatible between a "Jewish" ceremony and Catholic belief. We can all agree on God but we all can't agree on Jesus.

Just my 2 cents.

-Len

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Jewish Weddings

Author: Susan (---.milwaukee.k12.wi.us)
Date: 02-04-01 17:06

Do I believe the Jewish wedding ceremony excludes people who believe in Christianity? Well, from my Authorized Daily Prayerbook, here is the complete text of the Jewish wedding service, translated into English.

The preliminary blessings of the betrothal ceremony:
 Blessed be he that comes in the name of the Lord: we bless you out of the house of the Lord. O come, let us worship and bow down; let us kneel before the Lord, our Maker. Serve the Lord with joy; come before him with exulting.
He who is mighty, blessed and great above all beings, may he bless the bridegroom and the bride. 
all right so far. 
Blessed art thou, O Lord our God, King of the Universe, who createst the fruit of the vine. 
still no problem 
Blessed art thou, O Lord our God, King of the Universe, who hast sanctified us by thy commandments, and hast commanded us concerning forbidden marriages; who has disallowed unto us those that are betrothed, but has sanctified unto us such as are wedded to us by the rite of the canopy and the sacred covenant of wedlock. Blessed art thou, O Lord, who sactifiest thy people Israel by the rite of the canopy and the sacred covenant of wedlock. 
Ooops! No people Israel, no sacred covenant.
Then we get to the central core words of the Jewish wedding ceremony: 
Behold, thou art consecrated unto me by this ring, according to the Law of Moses and of Israel. 
Sorry. Non Jews are not commanded to obey The Law of Moses and Israel, much less to give wedding rings to Jews or accept wedding rings from Jews and therefore cannot be consecrated under said Law.
Then, there is the reading of the marriage contract. It contains yet more stuff about the Laws of Moses and Israel.
Finally, it is customary to recite the seven benedictions: 
Blessed art thou, O Lord, our God, King of the Universe, who createst the fruit of the vine.
Blessed art thou, O Lord, our God, King of the Universe, who hast created all things to thy glory.
Blessed art thou, O Lord, our God, King of the Universe, Creater of humankind.
Blessed art thou, O Lord, our God, King of the Universe, who has made humankind in thine image, after thy likeness, and has prepared the means of perpetuation. Blessed art thou, O Lord, Creater of humankind.
May she who was barren (Zion) be exceedingly glad and exult, when her children are gathered within her in joy. Blessed art thou, O Lord, who makest Zion joyful through her children.
O make these loved companions greatly to rejoice, even as of old thou didst gladden thy creatures in the garden of Eden. Blessed art thou, O Lord, who makest bridegroom and bride to rejoice.
Blessed art thou, O Lord, our God, King of the Universe, who has created joy and gladness, bridegroom and bride, mirth and exultation, pleasure and delight, love, brotherhood, peace, and fellowship. Soon O Lord, our God, may there be heard in the cities of Judah, and in the streets of Jerusalem, the voice of joy and gladness, the voice of the bridegroom and the voice of the bride, the jubilant voices of the bridegrooms from their canopies, and of youths from their feasts of song. Blessed art thou, O Lord, who makest the bridegroom to rejoice with the bride. 
I include this to demonstrate that these happy people are supposed to be repopulating Jerusalem; there is nothing in the Jewish wedding ceremony encouraging Jews to beget Roman or Irish or Norwegian babies.

So does Jewishmarriage ceremony exclude people who believe in other religions? Not exactly, but it does exclude any from being a party to the marriage who is not a Jew.

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Sorry! My editor was taking a break.

Author: Susan (---.milwaukee.k12.wi.us)
Date: 02-04-01 17:08

So does the Jewish marriage ceremony exclude people who believe in other religions? Not exactly, but it does exclude anyone from being a party to the marriage who is not a Jew.

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Law School

Author: Len (---.ptc.com)
Date: 02-05-01 19:01

Let me clarify what Susan is saying, in Judiasm marriage is a religiously binding contract. This contract excludes non-Jews from participation. Basically if both partners are not Jewish then you can't have a Jewish wedding. On the other hand, big deal, you can still have a Jewish "inspired" wedding. Basically you strip out or modify the portions that deal with Israel and Moses law. As an example:

"Behold, thou art consecrated unto me by this ring, according to the Law of Moses and of Israel"

becomes

"Behold, thou art consecrated unto me by this ring, according to the Law of Humanity and of the Lord"

So what you end up with is really a civil ceremony, with a major Jewish influence, performed by a rabbi. It may not be recognized as a Jewish marriage but like I said, big deal. If your on the path to conversion this is a good start and you can "complete" your marriage with a traditional ceremony. If not then it's still a nice ceremony that has universal themes.

My 2 cents.

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Jewish-style weddings

Author: Susan (---.milwaukee.k12.wi.us)
Date: 02-05-01 20:22

Whether Len's advice is actually worth two whole cents I won't assess here. If one wishes to "borrow" from Jewish wedding traditions, the idea of reading a written agreement out loud to each other as part of the ceremony is a nice and infinitely adaptable one, and there are some beautiful versions of those seven blessings. Or best yet, if the wedding itself is not yet a fait accompli, take a lesson from our Catholic friend on the other discussion board and marry someone who shares your own religion and values instead of someone who doesn't.

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Author: mpfreed (---.webport.bt.net)
Date: 02-11-01 18:48

>So what you end up with is really a civil ceremony, with a major Jewish >influence, performed by a rabbi. It may not be recognized as a Jewish marriage >but like I said, big deal.

It's precisely Len's attitude of "big deal" making a mockery of the Jewish ceremony of marriage which makes so many Jews antagonistic to mixed marriages.

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Author: Susan (---.milwaukee.k12.wi.us)
Date: 02-11-01 20:58

If you want a civil ceremony, go find a judge. It's not fair to ask a rabbi to violate his or her most cherished principles.

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"Big Deal"

Author: Len (---.ptc.com)
Date: 02-15-01 13:55

I have tried to keep my comments from degrading into something less than civil but I am tired of the same baloney coming from the "traditionalist" camp. Judiasm is not a religion that is owned by one group of people nor is it a stagnant religion that has not developed over the years. Not all rabbi's share the same "cherished" ideals and I'm sure any rabbi who is willing to perform a marriage between a jew and a non-jew is probably comfortable with it. Let's talk about some of our cherished ideals.

Here is a pearl of wisdom from our Sages,

"Engage in not to much conversation with women. They (the Sages) said this with regard to one's own wife, how much more [does the rule apply] with regard to another man's wife. Hence have the sages said: as long as a man engages in too much conversation with women, he causes evil to himself"

These are the same sages that came up with the ban on intermarriage, I hope that one day discrimination and prejudice can be one of my "cherished" ideals as well.

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Same baloney

Author: Susan (---.milwaukee.k12.wi.us)
Date: 02-15-01 22:17

Len:

You commit a logical fallacy. To say that all the people who value the continuity of Judaism are the same people who believe men shouldn't talk to women makes no more sense than to condemn the practice of brushing teeth because the people who advocate brushing teeth are all the same people who voted for that idiot in Washington.

By the way, Judaism is an ism which comes from Judah. It still doesn't rhyme with spasm or chasm or orgasm.

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What is your logic?

Author: Len-Susan (---.dnvr.uswest.net)
Date: 02-16-01 02:34

What is wrong with my logic? The fact is our revered sages did not have much respect for your gender. Perhaps tomorrow I will wake up and recite a good old traditional prayer and thank God for not making me a women. Correct me if I'm wrong but aren't the people fighting for the continuity of the Jewish people the same people who wake up every morning and recite this prayer? If you are brave enough to embrace pluralism perhaps one day you will be brave enough to recognise that the intermarriage ban is nothing more than the same bigotry that produced the prayer I mentioned.

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Author: mpfreed (---.webport.bt.net)
Date: 02-17-01 15:38

Though I personally may not support egalitarianism in Judaism - call me an arch traditionalist on this - I don't see why supporting it can be considered to be in the same league as supporting intermarriage. After all the arguments for and against, historical experience and all the contemporary evidence show that intermarriage leads to reduction in numbers of Jews. As I have reported on numerous occasions, the vast majority of children of interfaith marriages are not brought up to be Jewish. In the next generation I bet it isn't one in ten.

This may not concern people like Len, but without Jews there is no Judaism - however he might define the word.

Murray Freedman

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Author: Robert (---.hot.rr.com)
Date: 02-17-01 22:57

There are rabbis, and there are rabbis, so the question is a simple one depending on where one stands. Maybe it would be better written as "Should rabbis risk losing their credentials if they perform mixed marriages?" The way things ARE at the moment - it is the choice of the Reform rabbis whether or not he/she will perform the mixed ceremony. OJ and CJ rabbis do not have the choice - the hallachah is clear in that a mixed marriage is NOT a marriage at all (in the eyes of Jewish Law) ergo, these rabbis MAY NOT perform these ceremonies. CJ rabbis are furhter prohibited from even attending mixed weddings.

You don't like it - talk to the Law Committee.

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Len

Author: Susan (---.milwaukee.k12.wi.us)
Date: 02-18-01 20:51

You badly need correction. You paint everyone whose ideas you don’t like with the same brush. According to your argument, it’s wrong to oppose murder, adultery, and robbery, because some of the people who oppose those behaviors are also antifeminist. On the one hand, some of the rabbis who refuse to do intermarriages are orthodox rabbis with old fashioned ideas about gender equity. On the other hand, some of them are lobster-eating, gay union-approving, abortion-rights supporting, ultra-feminist Reform rabbis.

And don't you dare try painting the rabbis who agree with me as misogynists. As a woman, an ardent feminist, and a mother of three daughters, I can say without qualification that I am more valued and empowered in my CJ synagogue than I would in your scheme. If Caitlyn O’Shaunessy’s children were every bit as Jewish as Rebecca Goldberg’s children, then Jewish women would be completely superfluous.

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Your #33

Author: Susan (---.milwaukee.k12.wi.us)
Date: 02-18-01 21:07

By the way, Len, I'd like to know who those "sages" are that how you know they are "the same sages that came up with the ban on intermarriage." I found this interesting little tidbit today in Pirke Avot 1:17. It made me think of you (in more ways than one)
"Shimon ben Rabban Gamliel says: All my days I have been raised among the sages and I found nothing better for oneself than silence . . . and one who talks excessively brings on sin."
So it isn't an anti-women thing, is it?

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Author: Rudy (---.ci.sf.ca.us)
Date: 03-01-01 14:54

I think the Jews should start picketing homes of Rabbis who perform abort....ooops,soory "officiate" intermarriage.
First for economical reason Reform adopted patriliniality,and now for the same reason they "officiate".How far they want to go with creating a problem of "Jews for one branch only".
Is it so hard to understand that we are PEOPLE,not 'just a religion'?

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Picketing?

Author: Bobby (---.tnt5.lax3.da.uu.net)
Date: 03-06-01 09:09

Hmmm...comparing Rabbi's who perform intermarriage weddings to abortion. That's odd I never thought of children of interfaith marriages as aborted. In fact I've always thought of them as beautiful creations thanks to G_D. Judaism gives us the concern for others...btw this is taught by the Reform Rabbis also.

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Author: Rudy (---.ci.sf.ca.us)
Date: 03-07-01 15:09

These "beautiful creations" you are refring to, Israel writer Hillel Halkin calls "Jewish -Gentile hybrids"...

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Halkin's hybrid theory...

Author: Bobby (---.tnt31.lax3.da.uu.net)
Date: 03-08-01 05:00

Well whoop-tee-doo for Hillel Halkin. Hybrids when referring to humanity is what klu klux klan memebers think of blacks when comparing them to apes. Now as a Jew I'm not going to lower myself to that standard no matter what Hillel Halkin's writes or says.

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Author: Susan (---.milwaukee.k12.wi.us)
Date: 03-08-01 07:08

I met Hillel Halkin once, twenty some years ago. He did not come across to me as a very nice person.

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Author: Rudy (---.ci.sf.ca.us)
Date: 03-12-01 16:08

Bobby:...Gimme exact references where KKK was refering to blacks as 'hybrid'.

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Author: Rudy (---.ci.sf.ca.us)
Date: 03-13-01 15:11

Prohibition of intermarriage from a RELIGIOUS point of view doesn't make a big sense.Bible in Deuteronomy 7:3 & 5 prohobits intermarriage only with specific tribes which are long gone.
Moreover,from the Orthodox point of view ,a child of a Jewish mother is still a Jew even if the father is a Gentile.But since Orthodox Rabbi wouldn't officiate this intermarriage,the child (Jewish child !) has parents who didn't marry from the Orthodox point of view.No logic at all!
On top of this,since the majority of Jews are secular,no way religious prohibition could affect them.
But prohibition of intermarriage has a perfect sense from the PEOPLEHOOD point of view.
We the Jews,have the highest IQ testing results (see 'Bell Curve' book by Murrey and Hamersten).We have more Nobel Prize winners than any other ethnic group on earth (21%).This remarkable achievement is a result of BOTH - our culture of learning/drive and genetics.But as recent studies of separated-at-birth-twins has shown,intelligence is more genetic than environmental.
So why to pollute our gene pool?
Yes,Ashkenazi gene pool is very shallow,some genetic diseases are very common.But we can marry other Jewish ethnic groups,and recent genetic engineering results are very promising also.
Simple,isn't it?

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to rudy: eugenics?

Author: carol (206.0.247.---)
Date: 03-13-01 17:08

Are you just a troll or are you really a Jew with so little sense of history that you are actually pushing the idea of eugenics and racial superiority?

Last time I heard talk like that it was about the 'Aryan race' and came from a neo-Nazi.

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Author: Rudy (---.ci.sf.ca.us)
Date: 03-13-01 18:44

Oscar Wilde once said - "If you can't answer to a man's argument,don't panic .You can always call him names".

Who said that we are "race"?
Jews are just a bunch of different ethnic groups(Ashkenazi.Sephardi,Mizrahi,etc.) binded by common religion and common (exept Ethiopian Jews) genetic origin.
See "Commentary" journal ,Sept.issue,an article titled "Wandering Jews and their genes" by H.Halkin.See Dec.issue with discusion,including a letter from yours truly (Rudy B.). None of us today are exact genetic replicas of biblical Israelites.We picked up our genes from Romans,Greeks,Khazars and Slavs.

And who is saying about 'Jewish superiority'?
I am saying ONLY about intelligence!
Other traits are equally important - ability to get along,non-violence,good temper,etc.All these traits have some genetic component into it.And the Jews do not do any better on them than any other people,sometimes even worse than other people.
So I am talking intelligence ONLY.
And see again about O.Wilde....

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Anybody can misquote Oscar Wilde.

Author: Susan (---.milwaukee.k12.wi.us)
Date: 03-13-01 21:50

I've never met Rudy, but from everything I've read by him in the past few years, I have determined that he is definitely not a very nice person.

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Author: carol (206.0.247.---)
Date: 03-14-01 09:50

Gee, Rudy, it sure looked like you were arguing for Jewish genetic superiority.

Must have been that 'Why pollute our gene pool?' comment that threw me.

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Susan and Carol

Author: Rudy (---.ci.sf.ca.us)
Date: 03-15-01 15:03

Hillel Halkin is not a 'nice person', Rudy is not a 'nice person'.Who else?
The question is wether Halkin and Rudy are RIGHT,not whether they are 'nice'.
Halkin and Rudy both PUBLISHED their views.Go and do the same if you don't like what we are saying!
Remember that an Internet addiction is cureable.
Reread my # 49, I explicetly saying there that there is no such an animal as a "Jewish superiority".I am talking about intelligence only.
But if you like to substitute emotions for logic and continue attaching labels ,you are welcome to do so! It is a common phenomen these days -"race","superiority","blaming the victims","Nazi","homophobic".What else?

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intelligence

Author: Mina (---.rutgers.edu)
Date: 03-15-01 17:50

Murray and Hernstein's book has been criticized on lots of grounds -- both empirical and normative. For examples of these criticisms, please see the issue of *The New Republic* which was devoted solely to this topic.

The nature/nurture question is still far from resolved and our tools for testing intelligence still far from invulnerable to environmental influences. That aside, I find any arguments based on the imperative to breed superior traits to be morally corrupt. On that ground, as well, it seems to me that you could argue that out-marriage is good, as in-marriage increases the prevalence of Tay-Sachs and Gauche's Disease among Jews.

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Author: Rudy (---.ci.sf.ca.us)
Date: 03-15-01 19:14

Yes,'Bell Curve' was criticized.But no critic ever came from the scientists as Murrey and Hamerstain are.Critic came from so-called social wokers.
Nurture and nature contribution is no mystery anymore after the study of separated-at-birth-twins,reread my # 47.
But there are some people who have a personal interest to push the nurture.Don't get me wrong! It helps,but only so much.
Again,reread my # 47.I did mention Ashkenazim shallow gene pool and some genetic disesas.So what's new ?
Irish,for example (unlike the Jews by the way),have genetic predisposition for alchoholism ( some gene mutations).I can give you a list of other ethnic groups and their genetic diseses.Blacks have a predispostion to a high blood preassure and so on.
And I am not going to respond to your emotional outburst ("morall corrupt").As I said before,I do not go by labels.Sorry.

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Bell Curve, et al

Author: Mina (---.rutgers.edu)
Date: 03-16-01 18:19

Your assertion that only social workers, not scientists, have criticized Murray and Hernstein is wrong. And there are a number of different scientific and social scientific disciplines that bear on the issue they addressed. The separated-at-birth twin studies do not resolve the nature/nurture debate, either. You could go the psychology dept. at any major university and find differences of opinion on this issue.

My point about the genetic diseases was that one could just as easily use the argument you make about the genetic effects of in- and out-marriage to favor the latter.

Even if it were true that there were measurable and natural differences in intelligence between groups, the differences among individuals in those groups would be far larger than the differences between the averages of the groups. The utilization of these group categories to make assumptions about an individual's intelligence (and genetic makeup), therefore, would be useless.

Let me elaborate on my moral objection to your argument, so that it will not just be a label. I think that basing arguments about reproduction on the idea that some traits are more desirable to promote than others (within a certain range of normalcy) flies in the face of valuing the diversity of human kind. I also think that, given the point in my last paragraph (i.e. the large intra-group differences), the purposes of studies like Murray and Hernstein's is suspect.

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Author: Rudy (---.ci.sf.ca.us)
Date: 03-19-01 11:34

I can only repeat that no scientist ever criticized data presented in 'Bell Curve'.
Granted, issue of nurtue/nature was not "resolved" in the sence that nothing is "resolved" in science,it is a process,not an event.
Yes,in Universities groupd devoted any kinda of "ethnic studies" oppose this finding.Are you surprised?
You are confused about variations between ethnic groups and within groups.
Japanese are on average are shorter than Europeans,although in both groups the height varies largely.
Have you noticed that among Blacks there are no world class swimmers? It is because the density of their bones are higher thah that of whites,although again the density is varies greatly within the each group.
I am sure you have heard about early pregnancy among Black and Latino girls.The main reason that these two ethnic groups are maturing earlier than whites (girls in these groups start menstruating as early as 9 years old),although again maturity rate is vary within the group (and in Western world it is going down for every group).You are simply unfamiliar with the subject.
May I recommend you two books? One is by Dinesh 'D'Sousa 'End of the Racism' and by Paphael Patai 'The Jewish Mind'.
Don't worry about Ashkenazim,they will survive. Although I will not oppose(in the future) some direct gene donations from Scandinavians say,but NOT thru sex.
And you will not be able to dragg me into "moral subjects".Sorrrry!

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ugh

Author: Mina (---.rutgers.edu)
Date: 03-20-01 16:16

I hope we are not boring others too much, and I promise not to make another posting on this topic whatever Rudy should say next. However, there are in fact a number of serious scholarly books critiquing *The Bell Curve." One example is *Intelligence, Genes, and Success: Scientists Respond to The Bell Curve*
edited by Bernie Devlin et al.

I absolutely do understand the difference between within-group and between-group differences, and your example precisely illustrates the point I was trying to make. Marrying on the basis of ethnicity/race in order to get "good genetic material" in your partner is an extremely inefficient way to go, precisely because -- whatever the differences between the means of different groups -- the within-group differences are larger.

I'm sorry and surprised that morality doesn't interest you.

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Author: Rudy (---.ci.sf.ca.us)
Date: 03-22-01 14:25

I didn't say that an "efficient way" to get a high quality of genetic material is to marry within his/her own ethnic group.Please do not generalize!
I did say,however,in effect that it's verrrry efficient way for Jews to get 'smart kids' by marrying within the group.Not to mention to elliminate drinking problems.
Are there exeptions! Of course! So?
And you confusing the topic of book you brought to my attention.They are saying that success does not necessarily follow a high IQ.
On the same topic see book 'Emotional Intelligence' .That's true.
And you still do not want to undersand that some traits are (statistically speaking) differ among different ethnic groups despite the fact that they are differ within the ethnic group as well.
Please try to publish your opinion that,say Japanese are (on average) of the same height as Europeans because height varies among both ethnic groups.And then we will talk....
May I mention that I have quite a few publications on this topic in Jewish press? The last on genetics see 'Commentary' journal December issue of the last year.
Nice talking to you...

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Author: Sam (208.5.125.---)
Date: 04-03-01 13:17

Dear Rabbi,
My stepdaughter, a Jewish girl, is marrying a very fine Catholic man. My wife
and I are looking for a Rabbi in the (withheld) area who will perform the ceremony
for them. The groom wishes the actual ceremony to be held jointly with a Catholic
priest. The wedding ceremony and the reception are to be held in a hotel so there
is no "religious property" involved (ie. not in a church).

Dear Name@Withheld,
I can see that you are sincerely concerned with your step daughter's best
interests, and that you want to do the right thing Jewishly, seeing as you want a
rabbi to perform the ceremony.

But let me tell you a joke: It was right before Yom Kippur and the Rabbi sees one
of his congregants entering a non-kosher restaurant. He could not believe his
eyes! As he peers into the window, he sees the man talk to a waiter and sit down.
He watches while the man orders lobster and pork and eats it with relish. Unable
to contain himself, the Rabbi rushes in and confronts his congregant: "What is the
meaning of this?" The man answers, "Rabbi, were you watching the whole time I
was eating the unkosher food?" "I saw every bite," says the Rabbi. "Well, then,"
says the man, "what's the problem? It was under rabbinical supervision!"

While you and I may have differing views regarding intermarriage, I'm sure we agree on the basic principles of honesty and integrity. We both agree that it's wrong and dishonest to create and foster false impressions.

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software test

Author: InterfaithFamily.com editor (---.ne.mediaone.net)
Date: 09-13-01 10:01

This posting is just a test of software--ignore it.

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Author: A jewish person (---.ipbusiness.net.ar)
Date: 11-27-01 02:21

The jewish holocaust: if Hitler couldn´ t do it the jewish people will do.
Thank you Interfaithfamily.

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Author: Bryce (---.proxy.aol.com)
Date: 12-12-01 00:09

I happened to notice a pretty good article on this forum topic -- and it came from this very website: http://interfaithfamily.com/article/issue37/markley.phtml

Sam (#59): That joke was funny.

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test

Author: IFF editor (---.ne.mediaone.net)
Date: 12-13-01 15:57

This posting is a test of software.

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software test

Author: Ronnie Friedland (---.proxy.aol.com)
Date: 02-14-02 10:47

ignore

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