Should There Be A Ger Toshav Status - Page 2

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second class status

Author: mpfreed (---.proxy.aol.com)
Date: 10-03-01 19:49

To Susan,

It's not a matter of second class status - whether one likes it or not, many called Jews by Reform rabbis are not considered so according to halacha. Severe problems can arise because if Reform converts are not advised that they will be unrecognised as Jews by the majority of the Jewish world.

BTW, Susan can you let me have your correct email address so that I can reply to yours of some days ago ?

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"majority of Jewish world"

Author: Elie Aharon (---.cpinternet.com)
Date: 10-03-01 23:58

"Severe problems can arise because if Reform converts are not advised that they will be unrecognised as Jews by the majority of the Jewish world." , mpfreed claims. That may be correct... and maybe not. I found mixed results.

The following are interesting sites. Turns out that Orthodox are about 7% of the U.S. Jewish population, and perhaps half or so of the world Jewish population, depending on how you define terms.

This is more info than is really needed, but since it's interesting I thought I'd post six of the better sites I found, as follows:

http://www.jcpa.org/jl/hit11.htm , historical overview of Israel's changing Jewish demographics and their Israeli impact.

http://www.jcpa.org/dje/articles2/demographics.htm , on demographics of Jewish identification in the world. concludes that about 33-45% may be Orthodox. (info may be dated)

http://www.virtualjerusalem.com/judaism/asktherabbi/ , an even-handed description of the four main movements in Judaism, with U.S. 1990 population %'s. (Orthodox at 6%).

http://www.adherents.com/adh_branches.html#Judaism , site estimates from 13% to 43% of world Jewry is Orthodox, depends on whether secular is included in Orthodoxy definition.

http://web.clas.ufl.edu/users/kenwald/pos4291/spring_00/jewish_practice.htm , excellent thumbnail chart of the four main movements in Judaism, contrasting various practices and beliefs.

http://www.jewishsf.com/bk960920/1bortho.htm , some of the complications of definition in Israel, where Orthodox comprise about 15% of the entire population.

Elie Aharon

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Author: mpfreed (---.proxy.aol.com)
Date: 10-04-01 12:52

To Elie,

Just two points in response to yours:-

1. A Jew according to halacha is recognised as a Jew throughout the whole Jewish world. A Reform (or for that matter a Conservative) Jew is recognised only amongst Reform - and, though we can argue about what proportion of the Jewish world that may presently constitute, it is only a part. Moreover that part is shrinking, and surprise, surprise, that's due largely to intermarriage !

2. The only growth area of world Jewry is the Orthodox - even in America. Look out for the findings of the 2000 US National Jewish Survey whoich are due to be published in the near future. I am willing to bet that the percentage of Orthodox will be higher than it was ten years previously.

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demographics of orthodox and non-orthodox

Author: Susan (---.as11.nwbl0.wi.voyager.net)
Date: 10-05-01 10:48

The essay to which the other poster referred (http://www.jcpa.org/dje/articles2/demographics.htm ) was very interesting. I took the time to read it, and I've copied, from its conclusion

<I> These figures suggest that, as opposed to the popular image of a tiny
embattled minority seeking to impose its will on the vast majority of
world Jewry (the usual figures given are 15 percent versus 85 percent),
Orthodox Judaism commands the allegiance of between 33 to 45
percent of all the Jews in the world and 50 to 70 percent of those who
identify as religious in some way. Conversely, the non-Orthodox
religious movements account for no more than one third of world Jewry
and possibly as little as 25 percent. </i>

What the particular essay I read alludes to only minimally is that there are people who could be described by others as "Orthodox"but who for whatever reasons will not use that term themselves. That name was coined by the detractors of the movement, and I know a number of people who find it distasteful, preferring "traditional" "Torah-true," or simply "Jewish." So the number of Jews who believe in Orthodox Judaism is actually greater than the number of Jews who will identify themselves as "Orthodox."

People should understand furthermore that Conservative Judaism does not behave the same way in the U.S. as it does in Israel. Israelis may lump it together with Reform when considering the unique role religion plays in the politics of that country. In the U.S., however, it is closer to Orthodx Judaism when one considers issues of Jewish law and practice, including the "Who Is A Jew?" question. If one adds up all committed practicing Jews, the combined strength of Orthodox and Conservative Jews, or total Non-Reform, is considerably greater than Reform.

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Ger Toshav Status

Author: Fred Bluestone (---.208.89.58.Dial1.Miami1.Level3.net)
Date: 10-16-01 17:41

The more I think about it, the less I like the idea of the Ger Toshav Status idea; however, I must make one (more) politically incorrect statement: In this varied and diverse world, aworld filled with hundreds (if not thousands) of theories, concepts and explanations about the existence and nature of G-D, we must ALL come to understand that each person has his own unique religion. In other words: our religion, our faith in G-D is predicated on our own souls, rather than the religion of our mothers.

I, Fred Bluestone, recognize ALL JEWS as JEWS, mother's faith notwithstanding!
Moreover, this issue is trivial, trite, banal, pedestrian ..yaget the drift of my meaning? Religion, especially Judasim is about G-D, not about your mother!

If U ain'T talking G-D, get out of my yard!
iIf U worry 'bout "who is a Jew," I got no use 4 U!
Religion is about Ha-Shem, how many times must I say it again?

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Author: Bryce (---.proxy.aol.com)
Date: 10-17-01 01:53

Fred, It's time to stop talking in circles. While I admire your desire for Jews to start talking more about God, I have this complaint:
"I recognize all Jews as Jews" is MEANINGLESS unless and until you're willing to define who is a Jew.

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Ger Toshav Status

Author: Fred Bluestone (---.208.88.211.Dial1.Miami1.Level3.net)
Date: 10-21-01 00:32

BRYCE (#41)

I CANNOT DEFINE A JEW, NOR CA I RECCOMEND ANY SUGGESTIONS OR ALTERNATIVES TO THE "WHO IS A JEW" DEBATE. I REALLY DON'T CARE, ALL I CARE ABOUT IS G-D, HA-SHEM, EL SUPREME-O, "IL CAPO DI TUTTI CAPI" RELIGION IS ABOUT G-D, AND NOTHING ELSE. IT'S NOT ABOUT 'JEWISH TRADCITIONS", BAGELS AND LOX, NOR MY SYNAGOGUE IS MORE TORAH-TRUE THAN THEIRS. IT'S ABOUT G-D!

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Ever hear of a thing called "Torah"?

Author: Susan (---.as9.nwbl0.wi.voyager.net)
Date: 10-21-01 12:46

Fred:

I'm not sure whether you consider yourself a Jew or where you think this idea of "G-d" comes from, but generally, people who consider themselves Jewish and who believe in G-d have some belief in G-d's Torah, also. What about you? Before your completely dismiss Jewish Tradition as something that only pertains to "Fiddler on the Roof," I suggest you take a good look at the Torah. It asks Jews to do a lot more than to simply believe in G-d, and there are a lot of people walking around California and Massachusetts and points between who are following these Torah traditions and still very much living in the twenty-first century.

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Author: mpfreed (---.proxy.aol.com)
Date: 10-21-01 13:15

To Fred,

Belief is NOT enough on its own. In fact Jews are urged to perform mitzvot first - belief will come from performing them. (By their deeds shall you know them) When they accepted the Torah at Sinai they said 'Naaseh Venishma', we will do - and then understand. The order of the words is all important.

As for a definition of a Jew, perhaps a simplistic one is a person who thinks of him/herself as a Jew and is recognised as such by at least the majority of other Jews.

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Ger Toshav

Author: Marty (162.70.166.---)
Date: 10-31-01 17:26

I for one, would appreciate some "legitimate" standing in the eyes of Jewdaism. As the husband of a Jew, and the father of two children being raised Jewish, I feel as I am tresspassing in some way every time I step into a Temple, or even put on a yamulka. I agree with one comment that people who are going to treat you badly, will treat you badly regardless, but just knowing that I have some some "legal" recognition would be be comforting to me, if serving no other purpose. I too, was one of those people that say "I was raised Catholic" but haven't practiced in 25 years. I have considered conversion, but could not in good faith stand before G-d and say that I could live my life as a good Jew, so would appreciate any way to participate more completely in my family's Jewish life. (Imagine how horrible it feels to be told that because you aren't Jewish, you can't present your own son for his Bris!)

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Author: A Southern Jew (---.mpowercom.net)
Date: 11-01-01 09:26

Marty,
Could it be that you want the rights, but not the responsibilities, of being Jewish?

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one last effort

Author: Fred Bluestone (---.212.189.55.Dial1.Miami1.Level3.net)
Date: 11-04-01 01:02

In reading the replies to what I've previously submitted, I'd like to take just one more crack at it, with this simple analogy: While our rabbis are busily guarding the front door (to CONTROL who gets in) most of the congregatgion is slipping out he backdoor. Some have given up on G-D, others to the Unitarian fold,some to
the Oriental philosophies and still others to Jews-4-U-know-who!

Keep up this who-is-a-Jew farce and there'll be nobody left! To be perfectly candid:
Who is a Jew? I don't know & I don't care; moreover, I refuse to waste y time on it, as I have bigger fish to fry! (note: it will also be a kosher fish)!

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one last effort

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Author: A Southern Jew (---.mpowercom.net)
Date: 11-05-01 12:10

Well, Fred, we've got 'guards' at both doors. It's just that the back door is much larger, and down-slope, and it's much easier to slip out than come in.

But wait! The back door and front door to WHAT? To being a Jew? Now Fred, you can't answer that way if you can't even define what it is.

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Fred's Fish

Author: Benjamin (---.rasserver.net)
Date: 11-05-01 22:21

Fred,

If what you are saying is that the "Who is a Jew"/How to prevent intermarriage/assimilation vs. acculturation question is ultimately a distraction from the great vibrancy, meaning and joy of Judaism, then the vast majority of us would agree with you. If what you are saying is that there are no boundaries whatsoever in Judaism and every person just decides for him/herself, then I have to say that that notion will send the Jewish community down the tubes faster than just about anything else.

Communities must be open and warm and welcoming to stay vibrant. But a community, any community, by definition, has boundaries. If you don't believe this, then try the following: walk into a Catholic Church, tell the Priest that you are a Catholic, only you've never had an official Catholic conversion, you don't believe in Jesus and you don't accept the bulk of Catholic doctrine. But you're a Catholic because you say you are; you identify with the Catholic community. And if the Priest thinks that you're not Catholic unless and until you become Catholic his way, well you've got other fish to fry. Try it, and see how far you get. As ridiculous as this scenario sounds, that is what many seem to be asking of Judaism: I personally say what Judaism is or isn't, and how dare anyone disagree with me, regardless of how much knowledge they have or how much of their heart and soul they've put into it.

As to your idea that the Rabbis essentially are fiddling while Judaism burns, may I suggest another possibility. It is true that there is more assimilation, turning to other religions, intermarriage, etc. etc. It is also true that there is more interest in Jewish learning and Jewish spirituality today than at any other time in American history. The Jewish day school population is burgeoning inside and outside of Orthodoxy. Adult learning programs are popping up all over. The Orthodox, you know the group that has the most rigid definition of who is a Jew, are growing faster than any of the other movements. Outreach centers abound in every major city and many smaller cities. And they're all being funded by someone-so business must be good.

On Saturday night, I attended a lecture by a local Rabbi, not a special appearance, just one of a series of lectures-over 300 people showed up. So while it is true that many are leaving before they've taken the time to discover something deeper than what they got preparing for their Bar/Bat Mitzvah, many are not only staying, but strengthening and deepening their connection. The real question is not whether we personally get to decide what the boundaries are, but which side of the boundary we want to be on, the one that is dying and assimilating or the one that is growing and deepening.

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Southern Jew's Post

Author: Marty (162.70.166.---)
Date: 11-07-01 14:18

A Southern Jew,

You responded to my post with:

"Marty,
Could it be that you want the rights, but not the responsibilities, of being Jewish?"

I was simply trying to answer the question that started this discussion:

"Please post here your thoughts on Rabbi Steve Greenberg's article about the possibility of re-introducing the ancient ger toshav status in modern times."

I made the observation that having that legitimacy might allow me to participate more fully in my family's religious life. That's all, no deeper meaning than that. The question was asked, I posted my answer. My feeling is that you attempted to read something into my answer to support your own position.

I understand that MY choices currently limit my "rights" (as you call them) to participate in many of the life cycle rituals my family will celebrate. Your comment makes it sound like I'm trying to "get one over" on the Jewish community. "Hey, look at me, I can go to Temple on Friday night and feel pious, and then eat ribs on Saturday!!" I am admitting that I cannot accept (at this time in my life) the "responsiblities" (your term again) of being Jewish. I could go through the conversion process, and go through the motions of living as a "good" Jew, but that would not make me any more Jewish than I am now. I'm not asking for anything other than whatever "rights" ger toshav infers under existing Jewish law.

Now, whether re-introducting ger toshav in general is a good idea, is an entirely different discussion, and as an "outsider," all I can say is I think it might benefit me personally. But since I'm not a "member of the club," I can't vote on the membership rules. Y'all have to do that!

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Dual Reply (to #49 & #50)

Author: Fred Bluestone (---.158.52.71.Dial1.Miami1.Level3.net)
Date: 11-07-01 16:53

BENJAMIN (#50)

I agree with you, ie., the first of the 2 alternatives. I just want to expand Judaism's bounderies a bit, a tad, if 4 on other reason than that the world today is more complex and diverse than it used 2 B!

AND

Southerrn Jew (#49)

U R correct; I can't come up wioth a worthy definition of what a Jew is (or: who is a Jew)! From my vantage point however, the definition, per se, is less important than the "being there".

I thank both of U 4 making comments! FRED

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Author: A Southern Jew (---.mpowercom.net)
Date: 11-08-01 14:03

Marty wrote in #51 "I'm not asking for anything other than whatever "rights" ger toshav infers under existing Jewish law. "

I appreciate that you clarified that. I didn't realize that you were answering the original forum question. Forum-readers, correct me if I'm wrong: We will leave aside, for now, the obligations of a ger toshav, and just focus on their rights. If I recall correctly, gerim toshavim were permitted to live in the same community as Jews (in the land Israel in ancient times). But they were not permitted to "live" in the same bedrooms as Jews. Were there any other rights?

And a question to Fred: who wrote "it's less important than the "being there".

Being where?

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answer 2 southern jew

Author: Fred Bluestone (---.158.48.75.Dial1.Miami1.Level3.net)
Date: 11-09-01 01:02

Southern Jew,

U ask me what I mean by "being there'"? -good question. "Being there: means: U R at the syangogue for services (not just the High Holy Days). When there's a problem, U can B counted on. & U can B found being Jewish in ACTIONS, as opposed 2 words!

Although I weas born and raised in Brooklyn, I lived 4 many years in Indiana, where it's: "what U C is what U get" & people manage 2 lead happy & productive lives by "being there" as compared 2 the hoopla, hype & hyperbole of the big city. So, in Hoosier terms: they don't give a damn if your mother was Jewish, rather, it's if U will, as promised, shovel the synaogue's sidwalks! It's actions that count, not definitions.

"Being there" mean being square, i.e., sqaure in the middle of what's hapening and doing your part.

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Author: A Southern Jew (---.mpowercom.net)
Date: 11-09-01 12:37

I hate to beat a dead horse, Fred, but what makes a synagogue "Jewish"? (and, on the flip-side, non-Jewish?)

"in Hoosier terms: they don't give a damn if your mother was Jewish" -- Why would you prefer Hoosier terms instead of Jewish terms?

"it's if U will, as promised, shovel the synaogue's sidwalks! " -- Our Christian groundskeeper does that (well, he would if it actually snowed here in the South). Would that make *him* Jewish?

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Do you want to join us?

Author: Susan (---.as5.nwbl0.wi.voyager.net)
Date: 11-09-01 12:55

Dear "Southern Jew"

Perhaps, in keeping with the unorthodox orthography on this board, I should make that "Jewanna join us?" or something. Anyway, we're having a spirited discussion over on "Should we tell our non-Jewish parents that we're raising Jewish children?" board about the role of non-Jews in Jewish worship. It sounds as if you and Fred are having so much fun having the same discussion here. I'd suggest that the "Should we tell our parents" folks come over here and join you, but someone may accuse me of "incredible nastiness" if I tried. So instead, let me invite you over there.

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Ignore, this is just a test.

Author: IFF editor (---.ne.mediaone.net)
Date: 12-18-01 10:59

Ignore, this is just a test.

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A Letter from Israel

Author: miri (---.rlz.netvision.net.il)
Date: 01-22-02 03:35

Dear friends,
For all who are far away but close in heart...
A Letter from Israel is a biweekly newsletter written in English and in Hebrew, designed as a personal and warm letter for Israelis and Jews around the world. Please visit and enjoy.
Shalom from Israel
Miri

www.newsletter-israel.com

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Who is a Jew?

Author: Hank Ramirez (---.killeen.n-link.com)
Date: 03-15-02 21:59

I have read a number of submissions in this forum. In doing so I see a repeated statement of an inability to define what a Jew is. Being a Ger Toshav (one who is given to fulfill the Noachite law), this question has been a very close companion of mine for a long time.

It is generally accepted that Father Abraham is/was the first Jew. That being the case it could stand to reason that whatever the definition of a Jew is, it therefore must include Father Abraham(Abram).

Abram came from the Chaldeean city of Ur which is now located in Iraq. It was a pagan city. Abraham was a decendant of Shem whom we meet immediately after the fall of Babel. So it would be fairly safe to say that his mother wasn't a Jewess.

Then G-d spoke to Abram and told him to get out of Haran. And G-d told him,"Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee: And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing: And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed." Which he eventually did.

Later when Abram was ninety nineyears old, the Lord appeared to Abram, and said unto him, "I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect. And I will make my covenant between me and thee, and will multiply thee exceedingly.
And Abram fell on his face: and God talked with him, saying, As for me, behold, my covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many nations. Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee."

G-d went on to say," Abraham, Thou shalt keep my covenant therefore, thou, and thy seed after thee in their generations. This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised. And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of the covenant betwixt me and you. And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every man child in your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any stranger, which is not of thy seed. He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant."

Then it goes on to say,"0. If they shall confess their iniquity, and the iniquity of their fathers, with their trespass which they trespassed against me, and that also they have walked contrary unto me; And that I also have walked contrary unto them, and have brought them into the land of their enemies; if then their uncircumcised hearts be humbled, and they then accept of the punishment of their iniquity: Then will I remember my covenant with Jacob, and also my covenant with Isaac, and also my covenant with Abraham will I remember; and I will remember the land."

Finally G-d said,"That he may establish thee to day for a people unto himself, and that he may be unto thee a God, as he hath said unto thee, and as he hath sworn unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob."

Based on these admittedly few examples, three points can be made.

First, it isn't about Abram/Abraham's lineage, it IS about his interaction and covenant with G-d.

Second, it is G-d who created a people unto Himself who have since come to be known as Jews.

Third, if we separate ourselves from G-d, and live a life where we don't confess our iniquity, and the iniquity of our fathers before G-d, with their trespass which they trespassed against G-d, and that we also have walked contrary unto G-d. We are not Jews but imposters.

I admit that this definition isn't very broad, nor is it very warm and fuzzy. It is however, according to the Torah. And in the final definition, it is G-d who will say who is and isn't a Jew.

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Author: Bryce (---.ivicm.com)
Date: 03-18-02 13:06

Great work, Hank. I appreciate reading such holy Torah words. There might be a point or two that needs elucidation. When you say, "It is generally accepted that Father Abraham is/was the first Jew," that is only partially accurate. It would be best, despite the awkwardness, to call Abraham a "Proto-Jew". What is the difference, you ask? As an answer, your second point is most valid: "it is G-d who created a people unto Himself who have since come to be known as Jews." When did this creation take place? With Abraham? With Jacob? I am of the viewpoint that the COMPLETION of this creation took place at Mount Sinai. I believe all Jewish definitions (such as Jewish identity) and Jewish law (such as the example you mentioned: circumcision) are based on what happened at Sinai, not on what happened with Abraham.

Concerning your third point: "if we separate ourselves from G-d, and live a life where we don't confess our iniquity, and the iniquity of our fathers before G-d, with their trespass which they trespassed against G-d, and that we also have walked contrary unto G-d. We are not Jews but imposters."

While I definitely see the indispensiblity of confession and repentance (as well as our "interaction and covenant with God"), what about Jews who don't? I wouldn't write off so many people! I would STILL call these people Jews. "Backsliding Jews", maybe. "Jews who ought to shape up", maybe. I probably ought to include myself in this category.

It is true, as you write, "in the final definition, it is G-d who will say who is and isn't a Jew. " But I think some readers might misunderstand you. We humans don't have time to wait for the FINAL definition. For practical reasons, we need definitions NOW from worthy HUMAN authorities. I believe we have, even though many choose to ignore them, good definitions from worthy human authorities.

Mazel tov on choosing to belong to the special group (well, *I* consider it special) of non-Jews who have adopted Noachidism. (I recommend Noach.com to our non-Jewish readers.)

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Thank You Bryce!

Author: Hank Ramirez (---.killeen.dashlink.com)
Date: 03-20-02 15:34

Bryce,
I REALLY enjoyed this E-mail. I must confess my short sightedness and my
ignorance in a great many things, obviously this is one, and I thank you for your
comments.

One of my grave concerns and observations is that Jews like Christians have
become fragmented and elitist. Looking down their noses and disassociating
with the very ones they NEED to be exposed to. To my understanding, each has
a unique perspective and it is that very different uniqueness that is needed
to balance us as a people. To me a Jew is a Jew, it doesn't matter if he (or she)
is Orthodox, Karaite, or Reform. Granted, this may stem from my great
ignorance, but I prefer to think of it as optimistic innocence. To my mind
this uniqueness is the hidden richness that is to be found among the Jewish
people. In my experience we have beome too concerned with "doing it right"
rather than being in the presence of Hashem. It is He who made us a people
unto Himself, so it would seem that the whole point of the exercise is to
remain in His presence. So what if I don't bend my knees at the proper
moment or sing Adon Alom with the "right" inflection? It is my understanding
that the purpose of the Temple sacrifices was to bring us into the presence
of the Name. If my prayers fail to bring me into that Presence, then maybe I
need to change them. I grant you that the term "imposters" isn't very
diplomatic. Yet, in the reading of the Torah, I find that it is the heart of
a man that concerns G-d much more than the sacrifices. So it would seem to
follow that the keeping of the Law by our effort is inferior to the keeping
of the Law based on our heart's love of Hashem. To keep the Law according to
our heart's love would mean that the Law would not be burdensome to us or
those around us, but rather a joy. Which in turn would cause us to become a
blessing to the nations. As such a blessing to the nations, would we not
have the verifiable proof that we ARE His people?

Bryce, reading your
E-mail, I am convinced that you can within but a few moments discern who is
a (real?) Jew and who is not. Do you not have this experience? Is not the
Torah itself and the practice of hesed real proofs of whom is the (real?)
Jew?

THANK YOU again for your illuminating and thought provoking comments and I
hope you would feel free to send any commentary you deem worthy my way.

ger Hank

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Author: Bryce (---.ivicm.com)
Date: 03-21-02 14:39

Hank, it was great to see your insights.

Unfortunately, Hank, you're right about Jewish divisiveness. Perhaps we need more groups like Gesher, which means "Bridge" http://www.gesher.co.il/gesher/english/divide.shtml On this site you'll see lots of divisiveness between religious and secular (as well as uprooting misconceptions), but at least the people are talking TO each other, and not merely ABOUT each other. It's a start, I suppose. Perhaps this divisiveness is a natural outcome of people's insistence for truth. Show me a person who rarely argues, and I'll show you a person who doesn't care so much for finding truth. One way to "bridge the divide" is by inviting Jews who would otherwise not celebrate Shabbat over for a Shabbat meal.

I can understand that you (and many others) find that one's focus on following the letter of the Law can distract a person from following God with his heart. I'd suggest that this is mostly a matter of lack of thought-application. Although your examples of knee-bending at the proper time and Adon Olam inflection are rather extreme (for these are social issues, not religious ones), I'd suggest that each and every time you make a decision about whether (or how) to follow a Jewish practice is another opportunity to think about God, or your Jewish community, or a Torah thought. You are correct, that "it is (indeed) He who made us a people unto Himself...to remain in His presence. (I omitted some words on purpose). As the verse says, "Walk before Me and be perfect." It might help to keep in mind that the word "mitzvah" means commandment, and also is related to the word "connection."

A music professor once said: "Some people think that if a kid says 'I hate Bach', then the solution is to change Bach. But the real solution is to change the kid." I think it might be a bit rash to say: "If my prayers fail to bring me into that Presence, then maybe I need to change them." It's hard to say that the prayers need to be changed, when perhaps all is needed is a change in your thoughts and emotions AS you pray. (I'm speaking for myself, too, in these last two paragraphs!)

In similar vein, one must be careful when saying, "I find that it is the heart of
a man that concerns G-d much more than the sacrifices." While your statement is unrefutable, a careless reader might interpret it to mean that Jewish *practices* fall into such a distant second behind Jewish *hearts*, that they are pushed off the radar screen. I believe that Jewish practices have positive effects on people and communities far greater than the immediate "clinging to God" that it provides (or can provide.)

When you write: "So it would seem to follow that the keeping of the Law by our effort is inferior to the keeping of the Law based on our heart's love of Hashem." -- it appears that you are setting up a dichotomy. But I see no contradiction between the two parts of your sentence. Keep in mind the saying in Pirke Avot: "As is the effort, so too the reward." Also, we should be aware that simply to love Hashem takes a lot of effort! (e.g. conscious thought, refraining from sinning, diligently learning Torah (see Deut 6:6)). In addition, the way one approaches the positive commandments might be different from the way one approaches the negative commandments, as far as love and fear/awe are concerned.

If one finds that keeping this or that Jewish law is burdensome, he would do well to peruse Psalm 19 and 119. Also see Deuteronomy 30:12 and surrounding verses. Even better: hang out in communities where Jewish law is practiced with great zeal and with great joy.

Can I spot a "real Jew"? Well, *I also* say "a Jew is a Jew, ... it doesn't matter whether he affiliates with Orthodoxy, Reform, etc". (I altered your phrase a bit.) Of course, we must first define what a Jew is -- minimally speaking -- otherwise we're stuck in a logical circle. And to avoid schism, I think we really need ONE definition. (I'd rather not give my definition here, a definition that goes back millenia, because it might rile up those who disagree with me.) We do know, from ancient Jewish writings, that a Jew who sins is still a Jew (demonstrated in the case of Achan, in the book of Joshua.) Also, (and needless to say), a person who does chesed is not necessarily a Jew. Further, there are "Hebrew Christians" who try to follow many of the Torah's laws. Sometimes I get vibes when I meet a person, and I think he or she's Jewish. My accuracy rate is probably over 50%. (Impressive, huh?)

It is incisive questions such as yours, and my brilliant :-P answers that will someday inspire us all to really be a "blessing among the nations."

Please forgive my excessive use of parentheses. (okay?)

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Who is a Jew?

Author: Fred Bluestone (---.158.49.33.Dial1.Miami1.Level3.net)
Date: 03-23-02 14:05

HANK, BRYCE,

GREAT DEBATE! I CAN UNDERSTAND ALL SIDES NOW; HOWEVER, 4 ME, U R A JEW IF U BELIEVE U R A JEW! YES, I KNOW, IT'S NOT VERY LOGICAL, BUT IT'S THE ONLY WAY THAT MAKES SENSE.

I'M NOT WORRIED ABOUT FATHER ABRAHAM NOT HAVING A JEWISH MOTHER; RATHER, WHAT ABOUT SARAH? IF SARAH DIDN'T HAVE A JEWISH MOTHER, THEN ISAAK COULD NOT HAVE BEEN JEWISH? ...WHICH MEANS THAT ..."OY VEY" ...LET'S NOT GO DOWN THAT ROAD!

SOMEWHERE ALONG THE LINE, ONE JUST HAS 2 GO OUT ON A LIMB & USE HIS G-D-GIVEN COMMON SENSE. ME, I'VE BEEN OUT ON A LIMB MANY TIMES, AND OBVIOUSLY I'VE FSALLEN AND LANDED ON MY HEAD!

I PLEAD GUILTY: 2 ME KNOWING G-D IS MORE IMPORTANT THAN FOLLOWING THE LETTER OF THE LAW. ON THE OTHER HAND, WHEN I MEET MY MAKER, HE JUST MAY THROW THE BOOK AT ME. "OY VEY"

SERIOUSLY, I TRULY BELIEVE THAT WE MUST B INCLUSIVE, RATHER THAN LEGALISTIC. THAT IS MY HUMBLE OPINION! DO NOTE THAT I AM GAINING A DEEPER UNDERSTANDING OF JUDAISM THRU THE DEBATES.

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