Taking The First Step - Page 1 - InterfaithFamily.com

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Taking the First Step

Author: InterfaithFamily.com Editor (---.home.net)
Date: 11-16-00 15:09

Please post your comments here on Julie Slotnik's description of her experiences in an Introduction to Judaism class.

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"clannishness"

Author: Emily Blank (138.238.73.---)
Date: 11-17-00 13:37

Julie, I can kind of relate to your situation. My husband of 23 years (a former Protestant minister) doesn't have any problem with complaints of others who grew up Christian, but he does find Jews in general clannish. He is upset by the institutional insistence upon raising the children Jewish.

What Marc is responding to is somewhat different, but I know how difficult it can be when one's partner feels that a significant part of him is being ignored or excluded during discussions like these. I leave my husband home when I go to synagogue. We connect beaufifully on most aspects of life, but our spiritual lives are very separate. Fortunately, we don't have children.

Emily

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first step

Author: Bella (---.proxy.aol.com)
Date: 12-17-00 17:33

I am in a relationship with a non jew and i think its very important to take a first step and take classes on interfaith marriege. There has got to be places and poeple who know and understand the situation. We must get counsling before deciding on the future together. i know I will.
Bella

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Christian bashing in Judaism classes

Author: Fuzzy Math (---.dad.adelphia.net)
Date: 12-21-00 15:35

I experienced a lot of what your boyfriend refers to as "jesus bashing" when I attempted to take an Intro to Judaism class. For some reason, an entire class was devoted to what makes Judaism and Christianity different. As there was only a rabbi teaching the class, Christianity (and Catholicism in particular) were not explained adequately. There was also no priest there to comment on what the rabbi was saying about christianity/catholicism. This allowed people in the class --jews and non-jews alike -- to say things like "the eucharist is an act of cannibalism" and the rabbi just stood there like a tree, his silence implying agreement. There were practicing catholics in that room who were insulted beyond belief. Imagine if one of us had stood up and said the same things about Judaism! Anyway, I think this kind of thing goes on a lot. These classes need to be about Judaism and lay off any discussion of Christianity.

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Response to Christian bashing in Judaism classes

Author: Harold (---.tnt6.bos2.da.uu.net)
Date: 01-18-01 20:10

I too have heard a lot of either incorrect or incomplete information regarding the differences between Christianity and Judaism. However, in fairness, Christian churches are not innocent when it comes to bashing Judaism. Not just the fundamentalist churches who dogmatically assert that Jews are going to Hell. But many seemingly liberal churches (and I have seen this first-hand), who discuss the Law, upon which Judaism is based, as something inherently defective that needed Jesus to free them from it, or at least as something lesser than salvation through Jesus. Christianity is portrayed by many of its followers as The Way rather than "a way". (I assume that Catholics who were offended by the description of the derivation of the eucharist [which, incidentally, has been posited as a theory by some Christian theologians as well] would certainly understand why many Jews were offended by the recent document from the Vatican in which Judaism was described as a religion less complete than Catholicism.) It is also important to note that Christianity and Judaism are not always in agreement on how certain passages in the Hebrew Bible and the New Testament, as well some religious practices, should be interpreted or what they mean. Sometimes, Christians and Jews both can be offended when they encounter an interpretation that cannot be reconciled with their own. Nevertheless, it is important that Christians and Jews BOTH treat the other' views with respect, but realize that it is ok to disagree on some things and hold fast to one's own beliefs.

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Taking the first step

Author: Carla Atkinson (---.cg.shawcable.net)
Date: 02-24-01 19:17

Having my self stifled my prticipation in response to similar comments, I would agree with your mother. You'll only hurt yourself. Are there other areas with Marc where you unconsciously stifle your response. This is bound to create significant difficulties when you have children. I have three children age 11,9 and 6 and without support from your partner and an allowance to express all of yourself, the kids end frequently getting the message that there are things about Judaism that are off-limits. In raising children you want to impart the joys of living a Jewish life.

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article

Author: Olivia (64.128.149.---)
Date: 02-27-01 12:40

Marc's reaction has nothing to do with Julie's behavior in class. It has to do with how uncomfortable he is (at least right now) with the idea of having a Jewish mother for his children, a Jewish wife, and a Jewish home. Until now, his girlfriend has just been "Julie" and her Judaism was something secondary, incidental, kind of like his language. It was something that made her unique but not necessarily something he would want for himself, or that he envisioned having to embrace in his own life. It was just her realm. Seeing her enthusiasm for Judaism was a major reality check. Judaism is not incidental or secondary to Julie. It's a major part of who she is. Her entire identity is wrapped up in it. Even Julie is only now becoming aware of this. So Marc is not seeing his girlfriend showing off in class -- he's seeing a future where Judaism is prominent and ultimately he feels left out and scared --- he is not Jewish, and so far does not seem interested in converting. He, too, is struggling to assert his identity in the relationship, and with all their energy being focused on Julie's identity and culture (i.e., Judaism), where does that leave Marc? I commend Julie for offering to take a lesson in French or Lutheranism. But let's face it, it's not the same. Marc is starting to understand that he will be the one making the sacrifice -- allowing his children to be raised Jewish. That is what he's reacting to in this situation. It's so common. I have been through it and so have many others. I hate to say it, but it doesn't get any easier either.

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re: Harold

Author: Olivia (64.128.149.---)
Date: 02-28-01 06:54

Harold,
I'm not sure what you're upset about regarding Christianity/Catholicism's view of Judaism as incomplete. The reason Christians refer to the "Old Testament" and the "New Testament" is because Jesus came to give us a new law, a new way of living, he fulfilled old prophecies. So, in a sense, Judaism is incomplete for Christians. It is without Jesus. Jesus said "I am the way, the truth, and the light; no one can come to the father except through me." So, as much as Christians and Jews don't want to face it, Christianity is based on the idea of salvation through Jesus Christ. That being said, I recently went through my catechism book looking for references to Judaism and how the Church views Judaism. I found that its attitude toward Judaism and any other religion is the same: they view the religion as working toward communion with God/salvation by God/whatever term you want... in other words as essentially having the same goals as Christians. Also it noted that both Judaism and Christianity are waiting for the messiah (or working toward a messianic age)...it's just that christians are looking for the second coming, and Jews are looking for the first coming. If Christians believe salvation is only possible through Jesus, why does that offend so many jews? My husband is the same way; he gets upset when he feels that Christians are telling him he's going to hell (note: catholics do not do this. Whether or not someone goes to hell or whatever happens to him/her after death is between that person and god). But I say, why are you upset? Judaism is not even concerned with an after life...its focus is on the present. So why should someone telling you that you're going to a place you don't even believe in be a problem for you?

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Author: Mina (---.rutgers.edu)
Date: 02-28-01 18:28

So much interesting stuff in this discussion. I was particularly interested, Olivia, that you and I see some of the same things, but respond to them so differently. To me, the notion that one's religion is incomplete is by definition disturbing. As you point out, this depiction of Judaism and other religions is intrinsic to a *literalist* approach to Christianity; that doesn't for me make it less hurtful, just more explicable.

BecauseJudaism is the foundation of Christianity, the issue of its completeness in Christian eyes is much different than the issue of Buddhist completeness, etc. I am pleased by what is currently in your catechism, but there is historically and still in many circles a special Christian attack on Judaism, precisely because the two religions debate the proper way to interpret the same text (the Old Testament) and the relationship of Jesus to that text. You would never have "Buddhists for Jesus" the way you have "Jews for Jesus."

The scholarship from the Jesus seminar and the scholars of the historical Jesus point out that the source of much Christian teaching on Judaism lies in the early struggle over whether Christianity would be part of Judaism, whether Jews would convert over to it, etc. As it became clear that Jews would not become Christians and Christians moved to become a separate religion and proselytize among gentiles, the attacks on Judaism became greater. This can be seen, apparently, in the progression of the gospels. As Harold points out, even among liberal Christians, the negative depictions of Judaism contained in the New Testament influence the thinking of some, without their perhaps recognizing the historical struggle that motivated them.

Incidentally, this, plus the racialist anti-Semitism that has been part of the last few centuries explains, I think, why some Jews make spend so much time building up Judaism at the expense of Christianity, as was noted in the email that started this particular discussion. As noted above about "Jewish incompleteness," that doesn't make it less hurtful or appropriate, just more understandable.

On another tack, I think the postings on Julie's article might be contain some projections of the authors' own experiences and feelings onto her vignette.

InterfaithFamily.com Editor wrote:
-------------------------------
Please post your comments here on Julie Slotnik's description of her experiences in an Introduction to Judaism class.

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Author: Mina (---.rutgers.edu)
Date: 03-01-01 09:51

Whoops. One more thing I wanted to add is that despite the special sensitivity of Jews to Christian assertions of their incompleteness, other religions are also sensitive about this. The Pope's recent visit to India sparked a huge outcry over Christian and Catholic proselytizing in that country and the Pope's assertion that the Church intends to continue with this because Jesus is the only way.

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Author: Susan (---.milwaukee.k12.wi.us)
Date: 03-04-01 09:33

Julie:

So you're fighting with your boyfriend and melting into tears over the religion issue already, and you haven't even discussed children yet? I agree with your hometown rabbi that it's better to deal with your conflict now, before you get in too deep.

Ultimately, only you can decide what's best for you. As you've written, you need to be true to yourself. Is it more important to you to be part of a people which gave the world Moses, Isaiah, Hillel, Spinoza, Mendelsohn, Marx, Freud, Einstein, Gershwin, the Marx brothers, Jonas Salk, and Gloria Steinem, or to be part of a relationship with Marc? Do you value a civilization that has survived 3000 years of Egyptians, Assyrians, Babylonians, Greeks, Romans, Crusaders, and Nazis more, or do you value a romance which has a statistical probability or lasting five to ten years more? This is a choice only you can make.

Someone on another IFF forum wrote a while back that a human being is more important than a religion, of course. However, we're not talking about saving a threatened human life. If you turn your back on Marc, he'll survive and there will always be someone else to bear his children, decorate his Christmas tree, and share his cemetery plot. Maybe you can even stay friendly with him. If you turn your back on your Jewish heritage, the Jewish community will be diminished, and my grandchildren's generation, as well as future generations, will have a smaller pool of Jewishly committed and educated spouses from whom to choose.

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re: susan's comments

Author: Olivia (---.aatech.com)
Date: 03-16-01 23:19

I tend to agree with the premise of what Susan says, but I would use different reasoning.

First, I think Susan is a little melodramatic when she says you'll be turning your back on the group that gave the world all these great thinkers(!) I think the issues Julie is facing are actually simpler. Plus, I don't think telling her that Susan's grandchildren will suffer if Julie marries Marc will change Julie's mind. It's time to get rid of the guilt trip and just get real.

I was thinking today that some people compare interfaith marriage to interracial marriage and they are not the same thing at all. In a sense that's what Susan't logic reminds me of... she keeps pointing out the cultural issues that will arise.

I think Julie and Marc both need to seriously consider the spiritual and theological differences they face.

When you are young and in love, and religion has been on the back burner of your life for a good 5-10 years, it seems that your deep commitment to each other will overcome all odds. It even gives you a sense of bravado as you plan your secular wedding ceremony...screw the priests and rabbis! I'll have native american prayers and readings from Shakespeare instead! I don't mean to be flip; this is how I felt when I went through it.

When you become pregnant or have a child, or sometimes once you become married and begin to make life together as a family, things often change. You are no longer just mr. or mrs. individual, who happens to have a lover. You have a family with this person. And what kind of life do you envision for your family? Naturally you fall back on what you know...how you were raised. Suddenly you are longing for a Christmas tree, a seder at your home, a baptism for your child, and the list goes on. This is especially true as you watch your friends plan the appropriate cermonies for their spouses/children/families. Suddenly it doesn't seem so hip to be interfaith. Your longings for a sense of continuity are real and deep. The idea of having a dual religion home seems watered down and unsatisfactory.

You may also findthat your partner doesn't view God the same way you do. As a Christian, you may feel it important to pray, to talk about God, to have a relationship with God. You may want this for your child. If you're Jewish you may feel that rituals and home celebrations and observances are key; talk of prayer and intimacy with God seems weird and cultish and you don't want your child to learn of this, lest he/she think themselves Christian. Then holidays like Christmas and Easter start to come around, and it's not just the issue of the Christmas tree of the easter baskets that you are arguing about. It's the realization that this person whom you love so much, and whom you have vowed to stay with for the rest of your life, does not share the same religious values as you do. What's worse, these values have been ingrained in you both since childhood...they are part of who you are and they are not going to change. You wish your spouse was the same religion as you; then you could understand their beliefs and practices and feel comfortable creating a home with *shared* values.

If we could see what our lives would be like 2-5 years after we make decisions, we probably would change the decision. That's probably true of almost any decision we make in life. There is always some risk involved. But sometimes we disregard the wisdom of people who have gone before us without really listening to what they are saying, and understanding they are speaking from experience.

Ultimately, Julie and Marc will probably stay together and begin the ongoing process of compromise that all interfaith couples face. There will be days when each one wonders, if I had married someone of my faith, would I be better off? There will be days when the issue of religion won't be of any concern at all. And there will be days for each when they are alone with themselves, and they begin to think about their beliefs, and wonder how to pray, and how to begin to heal themselves knowing that they have broken with their faiths by the simple act of marriage.

What Julie and Marc can do now is not just learn about each other's religion as though this was a textbook course. What they need to do is decide how important religion is in their own lives, and how commited to their religions they actually are. Not just in terms of how their children will be raised or who will officiate at the wedding, but on a very personal basis...are they ready to reaffirm their ties to their own religion or are they ready to convert to another religion. And if the answer is "it's still up in the air..." then marriage is not a good idea. People should come together in marriage as complete individuals, without any wishy-washy ideas about what religion they practice or what their beliefs are. People should come together with a definite idea of what kind of family they want and what kind of values they want to pass on to their children, exactly what religion they want to raise them in.

We live in a society plagued by relativism. While we are open and accepting of other faiths and beliefs, we take this to the extreme and dilute the importance of committing ourselves to our beliefs...and to the importance of passing our own beliefs onto our children. Instead we rationalize that I'm-OK-You're-OK means I-can-put-aside-my-beliefs-and-traditions in favor of yours. So we end up confused and scatterbrained, not sure of what we believe, but longing to be a part of a community of believers.

that's all. I think I'm running out of room.

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Olivia's reasoning

Author: Susan (---.milwaukee.k12.wi.us)
Date: 03-18-01 11:04

Olivia:

I agree with what you write. However, based on certain clues Julie has dropped (alienation from the synagogue, willingness to marry a non-Jew) I have deduced that the spiritual, theological arguments probably wouldn't carry much weight with her. I don't know where you live, but I think Julie lives in New York. Given that there are so many Jews in that city, it is still possible there to consider oneself "culturally Jewish" by osmosis and proud of it without ever feeling the need to step foot in a religious institution. Julie's connection to Judaism seems to be more of the "positive childhood memories" variety than the "G-d commands me" variety. My point is that people need to be true to themselves and seek partners who let them live the lives they feel compelled to live. Julie seems not to have gotten in touch with that yet or resolved the dilemma of who she wants to be.

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Objection

Author: Becky (---.dsl.gtei.net)
Date: 04-23-01 03:14

I really must stick my neck out here and object to Susan's inflammatory comments regarding Julie's sense of identity and relationship. The list of famous Jewish people contrasted with the "romance" that might last 5 - 10 years is unnecessary and disrespectful. My understanding of this website is that it exists to lend support and information to people who are involved in intermarriages and who want to raise their children Jewish. I didn't think it was intended to shame people out of their relationships, or to be unnecessarily negative about people's family and personal choices. I don't expect us all to agree, but I do think we should be more respectful than this.

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My comments were not inflammatory

Author: Susan (---.milwaukee.k12.wi.us)
Date: 04-23-01 13:21

Becky, we're not discussing the case of an intermarried couple trying to raise their children Jewish. If we were, I would be happy to provide any information or support I could give them. What we have here is a young woman who is having fights with her boyfriend and in the process perhaps learning some new things about herself and her values and priorities. If we can help a young person face reality and avoid what may a big mistake, then that is not "disrespectful" in the least. I actually think Julie is to be commended for having the sense to face these issues before it's too late, which some individuals are too naive or self-centered to do.

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On Luther

Author: Bryce (208.5.125.---)
Date: 05-25-01 14:19

Julie Slotnick's article (The Introduction to Judaism Course Is Full of Surprises )was very interesting. She might like to learn about Rabbi Asher Wade, who started out as a methodist minister who converted to Judaism, along with his wife, a daughter of Lutheran pastors. What was one of the biggest impetuses for looking into Judaism (which he says fulfilled all the "intellectual, academic, spiritual and emotional truths" for which they had been searching)? Learning the truth about Martin Luther.

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Author: Joe (---.proxy.aol.com)
Date: 05-27-01 01:31

Julie should not take insults to her heritage lightly. There is more to Lutheranaism than Luther-and she should tell the rabbi so. If she just wants to lie down and accept insults, I guess that's fine, but it doesn't make for much of a life for the future.

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Author: Joe (---.proxy.aol.com)
Date: 05-27-01 01:33

Julie's boyfriend should not take insults to his heritage lightly. There is more to Lutheranaism than Luther-and he should tell the rabbi so. If he just wants to lie down and accept insults, I guess that's fine, but it doesn't make for much of a life for the future.

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Author: Bryce (208.5.125.---)
Date: 05-30-01 13:05

"Your priest or rabbi dresses funny." -- That's an insult.
"The founder of your movement promoted violence against the people of my
religion." -- That's not an insult; it's a simple, though painful, truth.
As Joe says, Julie's boyfriend should indeed not take these *charges* to his movement's founder lightly.

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The Underlying Issues

Author: Neil (---.ma.us.prserv.net)
Date: 06-07-01 23:51

What's with Joe? (No. 18) He thinks that historically accurate statements about Martin Luther are "insults to his [Julie's boyfriend's] heritage"? Whatever Lutheranism is today, Martin Luther's attitudes were what they were, and his writings were used later on in European history to Jews' great misfortune. This is not an insult-it is honest.

As Julie Slotnik says though, even though this doesn't reflect her boyfriend's experience as a Lutheran, he is disturbed by it because it is an unfortunate piece of information about his faith's origins that he did not know and does not fit in with how he thought things were.

I agree with Julie that this has nothing to do with her boyfriend's actions as a Lutheran. Nor do those ministers who were members of the Nazi Party reflect on Julie's boyfriend. However, every person of sincere Christian faith MUST grapple with the question of how Christians who so sincerely believed could have behaved this way. That is a very real question that is relevant to every Christian today as they come to terms with exactly how their faith informs their world view and their actions. And how Judaism and Christianity address this question and ones like it is VERY relevant to how Julie and her boyfriend relate to each other, and if they get married, how they will relate to each other and their children 10 years from now.

I do not mean to any way denigrate Christianity--just to say that it does not always have the same answers as Judaism to the deeper questions of our existence. Obviously, sincere Christian faith can lead to a Mother Theresa as well. However, merely saying that people who did what Martin Luther did weren't really Christians or the like isn't enough. If Julie and her boyfriend don't deal with the deeper questions now, they will either deal with it later in a more painful way, or never fully develop their relationship.

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happy life with you forever .realy.

Author: maamoun (212.31.117.---)
Date: 06-10-01 20:43

I am not rady now to relate .this sit sorprised me .I congratulating you .
Iwant to get marriege .I dont know how ?
thanks

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ignore posting, testing software

Author: IFF editors (---.ne.mediaone.net)
Date: 12-18-01 13:34

ignore posting, testing software

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