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Telling Your Non-Jewish Parents That You Are Raisi - Page 4

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Channukah lights

Author: Elisha Aharon (---.cpinternet.com)
Date: 11-18-01 21:21

Charles wrote, in #107, "Just as the Jews rededicated the Temple, it having been descreated by the Greeks with idols and non-kosher animals and a distinctly foreign ideology, we must rededicate ourselves to carrying on the Jewish tradition, values, and commandments that are obligatory on us."

I'd agree, Charles, but add the phrase "...as we each interpret them."

Channukah means lots of things... most important for me is lighting the lights instead of cursing the darkness (around the time of the equinox especially!); that one candle can make a difference; that with G-d's aid, doing what we can will be sufficient.

I hope you are willing to leave room for a variety of interpretations. Your strong feelings about what it means to you are evident, and I'm glad to read about them. The vitality and value of dedication that you evidence is important, and I appreciate that.

Elisha Aharon

Author: Bryce (---.proxy.aol.com)
Date: 11-19-01 00:47

Debbie, in #117, talks about "falling in love", and how it is impossible to control with whom one falls in love. This lack of control is a characteristic of animals, not humans. I've said this in another link: "If you don't look out where you're going, you're liable to "fall"."

Author: Bryce (---.proxy.aol.com)
Date: 11-19-01 00:56

Elisha, in #119 writes: "There is no danger that one day I will begin praying to
Jesus, nor that my Christian partner will one day forget the meaning of Jesus'
resurrection."

I'm curious if you plan on having children and hope to inculcate your beliefs in
them.

Thanks for the comments

Author: Charles (---.brookdale.edu)
Date: 11-19-01 01:51

Elisha, thank you for the comments. My reply might be better understood if you know something of my background. I am Jewish, born to two Jewish parents and was raised in a small town. I went to Hebrew school until Bar Mitzvah and had basically a secular outlook thereafter until several years ago when some friends prodded me into learning about Judaism and I became Orthodox a while later. Needless to say it has been a gradual process, but always moving forward even if slowly at times.

I learned about this site from some people I knew who were/are contemplating intermarriage. I would like to counsel them otherwise because I feel it's wrong and detrimental to the future of Judaism, but I think they're quite aware of their differences and it seemed to me that nothing I would say or do would change things (except maybe stir up angry feelings).

Recently, I was impressed by the delivery of lecture by an Orthodox Jew a large group of ba'alei teshuvah (person/people returning to the faith). I was struck by the direct, candid, and passionate delivery of ideas to a group of people that for the most part must have found such ideas difficult to believe, if not downright ludicrous (at least, that's what I thought). Then I realized this is a very good way to present Judaism to someone not so inclined to be "religious". It's honest and it shows commitment. Mainly, I've tried to use this approach when my parents ask me why I do these things. I hadn't really thought to use it in discussion with other not-so-observant Jews. I was leary about rubbing people the wrong way.

Anyway, reading some of the articles on this site left me a little downcast, especially considering the people I know thinking of intermarriage. I never really considered writing my views, thinking they wouldn't fly very far, but Annie's posting on Chanukah spurred me to write what I did (and I'm still a bit surprised at myself). Perhaps, someone will be intrigued enough to read further into Chanukah and Judaism in broader terms.

Now, to reply...

I think I know where you're coming from and I would not agree. For the most part, the obligations, values, traditions --it all boils down to the mitzvot, the commandments (613 of them)-- are not open to each individual's interpretation. I don't think I'll say much more now about this except to emphasize two points.

First, the usual response is that the debates recorded in the Talmud concerning the actual practice of various laws clearly show a variety of interpretations. This has lead to the erroneous conclusion that we can now interpret the Torah any-which-way we wish to, such as allowing operating a car on the Sabbath. That is clearly wrong and if you want to discuss it further, I would do so.

Second, we need to show more deference to the Torah authorities of our generation. These people have so much more Torah knowledge that when one doesn't know what to do in a certain situation, one should consult them (ie.the rabbi) and not try to decide what to do on his own. You may well make an incorrect interpretation of a mitzvot. In the non-Orthodox world, I have the distinct impression that the rabbinate is following the wishes/dictates of the congregation.

Now, another aspect to which you may be alluding is finding one's own meaning for a particular aspect of Judaism. For example, what does Chanukah mean to you? Yes, there are a variety of interpretations that have vailidity, but, I would not agree that each individual's interpretation is automatically valid. I found Annie's ideas really miss the point of the holiday. If this is the message she passes on to her children, that Chanukah is a celebration of fundamentalism oppression over liberal views, that it's about the importance of (good) wars (and implying that Judaism doesn't stress peaceful solutions enough), and suggesting that religious Jews are out to kill liberal Jews who may not be Torah observent, then what kind of "Jews" is she going to raise? I decided to ignore it all and give a more accurate insight into Chanukah, but I could have done a point by point refutation to show her interpretation is faulty.

Elisha, I am very sure this comes across as "close minded", but rest assured it also comes with assuredness, passion, and dedication. False ideas are recognized because the ideas are not in consonance with Torah ideas. As an Orthodox Jew, I recognize that Torah is the foundation for the Jews. If you take that away, then we're just another ethno-culture and then who really cares if we intermarry or not?

Anyway, that's my perspective. If the people I know are reading this, uh, Hi, how's it going? Well, this is what I believe and I hope you will consider these ideas with some degree of seriousness.

Author: mpfreed (---.proxy.aol.com)
Date: 11-19-01 05:54

Ed Case may think that Sylvia Fishman's study is flawed ( and I have read all his exchanges about it with Fishman et al.) but that is a matter of opinion with which I don't agree. Almost everything I have read on these Interfaith Forums accords with her findings.
Elisha Aharon says give up exclusivity; Judaism will not disappear. No it won't - but no thanks to intermarriage. However you define the term 'Jew' there can be no Judaism without Jews - and vice versa. In spite of the dire statistics I have quoted, there are some areas of vigorous growth in the Jewish community - and this will become even more evident in the coming years. It should come as no surprise, but it is still salutary, to learn that this is amongst the Orthodox - the group most uncompromising in its opposition to intermarriage.

Children's beliefs and Orthodox Channukah

Author: Elisha Aharon (---.cpinternet.com)
Date: 11-19-01 06:39

Shalom Bryce... yes I do have children, and G-d willing will be a stepfather as well. All my kids, in fact anyone who is close to me, understands that I perceive Judaism as a beautiful resource; one of the principal lights to the world. My two stepkids-to-be are Catholic, and will remain so; that's important to them and to their extended family, therefore to me as well. They'll also be lucky to get to experience Judaism through me.

I'm not making any more kids, but if I were, I'd raise them as Jews, without a doubt. My idea of the Jewish "mission" to the world is to reveal it as a beautiful, meaningful and fulfilling way of life, that any who wish to may choose it. I have every faith that given our most sincere and best effort to be welcoming and open, Judaism will not only survive, but prosper in the coming age, as intermarrieds seek religiously centered community.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
And shalom Charles... I'm glad to hear that you have found such a satisfying and meaningful home in Orthodoxy. I find the dedication, G-d centeredness, and dailiness of Orthodoxy inspiring to the extent that I have considered Orthodoxy for myself. I'm sure that you are sincere when you say that for you, there exists only one interpretation of Torah, but I'd like to acknowledge that even in Orthodoxy there exists a variety of observance of the mitzvot (commandments). I'd like to think that you'd respect the sincerity of those who behave differently... that there is not only one right way for those other than yourself. Perhaps we'd agree that all of us can play a part in creating a world closer to that which G-d desires. I also reserve the right of us both to change, all of us being works-in-progress.

As to Channukah's meaningfulness to me: I especially enjoy the aspect of limited resources being sufficient through the aid of, and in the service of Hashem (G-d)... whether the strength and patience of the Maccabees who eventually (if temporarily) prevailed, or the single cruse of oil that lasted all 8 days. We so often can see ourselves as hopelessly limited. It's so refreshing and inspiring to celebrate that surely, what we can do here and now will be sufficient to the ends that are Divine.

Oh... and I like to spell it "Channukah" in English just because it has 9 letters, like the channukiah (channukah candle holder) has nine lights. Finally, the 6th night of Channukah is especially nice for me, since I was circumcised a some years ago on that day, and celebrated that night with my surgeon, his wife, and four daughters. Surprisingly, each of us had our own channukiah, and I'll never forget how special were those (6 candles x 7 of us) 42 lights! It was shabbat as well, and we spent a wonderful evening together in the shabbat traditions of his family, and in the morning all davened (prayed, worshipped) together at their shul.

Elisha Aharon

statistics and responses

Author: Elisha Aharon (---.cpinternet.com)
Date: 11-19-01 07:25

Yes indeed... we've heard this song repeatedly, mpfreed. In time we'll know who among us (if any!) predicted accurately. Let's move on to something new.

I presume that we agree that a great number of Jews are now intermarried or will soon be intermarrying, and that the majority of those are not Orthodox. I've gone to some lengths, over time, to illustrate what I view as a positive, enhancing, workable Jewish response of self-assured and respectful dialog, welcome and acceptance... one that is working for me and my family and family-to-be.

Let me ask for something new and constructive: exactly what approach do you recommend for those who have intermarried, and for those who will intermarry despite your sincere protestations? Given the current reality, what is your constructive proposition?

As we prepare for Channukah, I like to consider the importance of lighting the candles we posess. The alternative of complaining about the season's increasing darkness has proven to be both uninspiring and ineffective, in my view.

Elisha Aharon

Author: mpfreed (---.proxy.aol.com)
Date: 11-19-01 09:59

Elisha, you ask me to give my constructive approach towards those who are intermarried or who will intermarry in the future - and that's fair enough. I have always adopted an approach on two levels. On the micro or personal level, I think we can only wish any intermarried couple well and pray for their welfare and happiness. On the macro level however the rate of intermarriage is so high as to be a demographic disaster for the Jewish people.

Reading these forums I salute the efforts (and sacrifices) made by many to bring up their children as Jewish. They also demonstrate, clearly and unequivocally, the extra difficulties brought to marriage when husband and wife (and of course the in-laws) do not share the same religion. I would make them required reading for all those young people who may even only contemplate the idea of intermarriage (before becoming emotionally involved). However, we have to remember that these forums only attract intermarrieds who wish to remain in the Jewish fold in some way. I would venture to say that, from the statistics available, that would not include the majority of mixed Jewish marriages where there is no question that the children will NOT be brought up as Jewish.

Many intermarrieds on the forum complain of not being welcomed etc. but intermarriage is now so rife that in most Jewish circles it is quite socially acceptable. Also many synagogues - particularly Reform - do go out of their way to be as inclusive as possible.

The real problem lies in Jewish continuity - or rather lack of it. All the evidence shows that the descendants of intermarried Jews have increasingly less chance of remaining Jewish than those of all-Jewish marriages. It is in trying to reverse this process - if at all possible - that much effort must be devoted.

Author: Bryce (---.mpowercom.net)
Date: 11-19-01 10:15

Elisha wrote:
I'm sure that you are sincere when you say that for you (Charles), there exists only one interpretation of Torah, but I'd like to acknowledge that even in Orthodoxy there exists a variety of observance of the mitzvot (commandments).

That is putting untrue words in Charles' mouth.

Author: Bryce (---.mpowercom.net)
Date: 11-19-01 10:20

Charles,
I think that you would absolutely flip out over "Patterns in Time, Chanukah", by Rabbi Matis Weinberg. www.fjp.net

Mpfreed:
You discussed the micro and macro level. It was very succinct and true, but I don't think most people reading this forum will "get it". Perhaps you can illustrate with a parable?

Author: Debbie (---.wall1.pa.home.com)
Date: 11-19-01 10:43

This is so disgusting! Putting others down, making yourselves appear better, a better Jew! No way, you're not! Jews are the ones putting the strain on Judaism, pushing and pulling. Orthodox, Conservative, Reform, Liberal. We are all human, we are all from the same mold, so why does it matter what each believes and practices?? For a lot of people, myself included, religion comes from ones own heart and soul, what we each believe inside ourselves is the truth for each of us. We are individuals, made to ALL feel differently, act differently, etc. No one here in this forum is better than the next person, and no one is a better Jew, no matter what.

Bryce writes in 121:
Debbie, in #117, talks about "falling in love", and how it is impossible to control with whom one falls in love. This lack of control is a characteristic of animals, not humans. I've said this in another link: "If you don't look out where you're going, you're liable to "fall"."

Ignorant comment from Bryce, in my personal opinion. We see people for who they are on the inside and on the outside as well. We see beauty in their personality, sense of humor, caring ways, etc. I don't ask those who I become friends with if they are of the same religion as myself. Love would fall within that same category. I am a human, I am a woman, I am a mother, I am a wife, I am a daughter, I am a good friend. I am all of those things that people see before they see my religion.

Debbie

Thanks for the comments

Author: Charles (---.brookdale.edu)
Date: 11-19-01 12:32

Elisha and Bryce, I thank you for your input. Bryce, I'll check out that website and get back to you. And I appreciate your comment in my defense.

I think I indicated, in my admittedly longwinded post, that there is variety in the practice of Orthodoxy. The numerous debates recorded in the Talmud prove this occurred long ago and, obviously, today there are many branches to Orthodox Judaism. It is by no means monolithic. But, even these varied approaches or customs are rooted in Torah tradition. It is not possible to say something: the Torah makes no ruling concerning driving a car on the Sabbath. Therefore, my interpretation is that such action is allowed. ---That "interpretation" is done without regard for the priniples for deriving rules from Torah and without regard for the Oral Law.

In other words, free-for-all interpretations, usually done to try to justify something you already believe to be true, really are not valid.

Elisha, you comment about showing respect for other people's beliefs and the sincerity of theire opinions and I note that Debbie intones a similar feeling. I would have you believe that an Orthodox Jew, who truly takes Torah to his heart, would never show disrespect to another Jew (or to any person for that matter) in terms of being rude, nasty, condescending and actively pushing that person away.

Yet, the Orthodox will never compromise their beliefs and faith so as to acknowledge validity in the non-Orthodox Jew's actions. I eat lunch with Jews who don't keep kosher. I don't stand up and announce I can't possibly eat with them and reprimand them for eating treif. It does not mean they are bad people who should be shunned. But, if they were to ask me, "is it OK if we it this?" as in, they want to know what I really think....well, I usually just shrug my shoulders.

You see, I would never expect them to change their beliefs on a dime. I know from personal experience, it's a very gradual process, frought with dilemmas. But, the key is knowledge of Torah Judaism. And I sincerely hope, that by talking with them about it every once in a while in a rather non-pushy manner....I hope they might become more interested and start to learn on their own initiative. Once that learning starts, then they may begin to understand why Jews eat kosher only. Without that knowledge, it's an irrational idea. As in, I work hard, support my family, give to charity, volunteer time for the needy....I'm doing good things. What possible difference does it make if I keep kosher or not? --And based on that logic, who could blame you for thinking....There is no difference!

And I'll make a final comment, concerning Bryce's statement about looking where you're going and falling and Elisha's comment about being a work in progress.

The learning involved with being an observant Jew never stops. We are works in progress, but hopefully always moving forward and upward. The altar in the Temple was accessed not by stairs, but by a long ramp. One symbolic interpretation: You don't have to make progress in a specified amount in order to grow spiritually. Even little baby steps forward are significant progress. The closer you get, the more significant each tiny inching forward becomes.

But, be careful. Don't ever be so sure of yourself. Unfortunately, you can always tumble backwards very easily. So, always strive to keep learning more about Judaism. Knowledge of Torah will be instrumental to the survival of the Jews

Author: Bryce (---.mpowercom.net)
Date: 11-19-01 16:35

Great thoughts, Charles!
Debbie, all I said is that if you (the generic 'you') can't control who you decide to love, then you are more like an animal than a human. It had nothing to do with choosing to love based on the other's religion.

mpfreed's proposition is... ?

Author: Elisha Aharon (---.cpinternet.com)
Date: 11-19-01 18:50

And so, having restated your perception of the problem of intermarriage yet again... what is your constructive proposition to deal with the reality of intermarried families? I missed that part.

Second: I'd be cautious about making the macro/micro distinction; this is historically the logic of prejudice, which you may not intend. I agree that "we can only wish any intermarried couple well and pray for their welfare and happiness", but later you state that "intermarriage is now so *rife* that in most Jewish circles..." [**emphasis mine]. To see this most clearly, substitute any ethnic group.

Elisha Aharon

Author: mpfreed (---.proxy.aol.com)
Date: 11-20-01 12:35

Elisha, we are dealing here in these forums with bringing up the children of intermarriage as Jews, so if you want me to be blunt I would say that the practical way to deal with it is conversion. That may present almost insuperable difficulties to Orthodox - perhaps slightly less so to Conservative Judaism. However, Reform will probably be the answer here. I understand that after the decision to adopt patrilineality by the latter movement in 1983 a child with one parent Jewish is considered Jewish PROVIDED that the child is brought up Jewish. What that may mean in practice may vary from Reform rabbi to rabbi, but essentially I take it to mean that the child must attend religion classes, attend synagogue/temple regularly and become bar/batmitzvah. Whether that would be enough to ensure that the child will eventually stay within the Jewish fold by marrying Jewish and not copy the practice of his Jewish parent is a moot point.

I'm afraid I cannot make any sense of your second point. Perhaps you could express it more clearly?

Thanks again

Author: Charles (---.brookdale.edu)
Date: 11-20-01 18:13

Thanks for the thanks Bryce. I appreciate it. I'm glad you were able to make heads and tails of the post because after I was looking at it, I realized there were a fair number of grammatical errors and in sentence structure. I ought to keep such posts shorter. I haven't had a chance to look up that web site yet, but I am reading further on Channukah (I prefer a book to a TV screen anyway). By the way Elisha, that point on 9 letters in "Channukah" for the 9 candles (on the last day) was nice. Or I could spell it "Chanukah" for the 8 days. First, I spelled it with 2 "n"s, then I thought that was wrong and spelled it with one. Now I realize that although most spell it with one, the other ways is legitimate.

Well, hopefully this short post doesn't have any words spelled incorrectly!

intermarriage and conversion

Author: Elisha Aharon (---.cpinternet.com)
Date: 11-20-01 20:08

thanks mpfreed for your responses... it's nice to move into constructive dialog. I'll try to clarify my second question in another post. Having just today read the Conservative position, it sounds like you'd be comfortable with their official approach to intermarriage, which is, in order, "prevent... convert... keruv (be welcoming, in hopes of conversions)".

It's outlined rather clearly at http://www.uscj.org/intmar/statement.html for any that want to read it. (I understand you have not "signed on" to this view here, mp, so don't consider my dissention below to be personally directed.)

Inevitably, they who create complex rules have to live with the complications. I mostly consider myself Conservative, with a large interest in the other movements as well... but I find the Conservative position embarrassingly biased and needlessly complex.

Because the Conservative movement does not recognize patrilineal descent, they're in the rather awkward position of being able to accept kids as Jews if they were born of an intermarried Jewish Mom, but not if they were born of an intermarried Jewish Dad, in both cases presuming the kids are raised exclusively as Jews. In the J-Dad case, the kids have to be converted. As a Jewish male, I want male Jewishness and Jewish influence on kids to be valued as highly as a woman's, so I can't agree with the matrilineal bias.

If a first marriage was J-J-in a Jewish home, and the second J-nonJ-in the same Jewish home, the kids of the second marriage, being raised in the same Jewish home, may not be "as Jewish" as their siblings... depending on the sex of the Jewish parent! Sillyness.

Further, in the Conservative position an insincere conversion for the sake of a Jewish marriage is preferred over intermarriage, though it is hoped that conversions will be sincere. I'm a big fan of sincerity over appearances, so again I can't agree.

MP I think you're right that in the Reform and Reconstructionist movements conversion of the kids would not be necessary as long as either parent is Jewish and the kids are raised as Jews. Seems simpler. Is there a down-side that I'm missing?

The questions are for anyone... Is the maze of official regulation really necessary to preserve Jewishness? And if so, is sincerity encouraged to be compromised?

My question does not apply to Orthodoxy, which to me is a lost cause despite my admiration and respect. To the Orthodox, I'm not a Jew, so for me, it's a non-starter.

Elisha Aharon

Are we practicing prejudice?

Author: Elisha Aharon (---.cpinternet.com)
Date: 11-20-01 21:21

In an earlier post I stated: "I'd be cautious about making the macro/micro distinction; this is historically the logic of prejudice, which you may not intend. I agree that "we can only wish any intermarried couple well and pray for their welfare and happiness", but later you state that "intermarriage is now so *rife* that in most Jewish circles..." [**emphasis mine]. To see this most clearly, substitute any ethnic group."

Something that was said sparked off the idea for me... we've heard the "macro/micro distinction" used before... on a macro, societal level, "XXX" people are a harm; on a micro, individual level, we wish "XXX's" well (in fact, some of my best friends are "XXX" people!). You see the problem here?

oh dear! Sounds like simple prejudice. In which case the "macro/micro" distinction is a justification. I'm concerned.

Are Jews who wish non-Jews well, but are opposed to intermarriage, simply prejudiced then? If instead we were talking about interracial marriages I'd have to say yes. Think of it: I'd never say, "I have nothing against blacks, but I wouldn't want my child to marry one." Is it different because it's about Jews and non-Jews instead of blacks and whites, for example?

Naturally, this is disturbing for me to think of it this way... but some of us are saying, "I have nothing against non-Jews, but I wouldn't want my child to marry one." More than just saying that! It's deeply institutionalized. And we certainly feel justified in condemning those Christians who would say that about Jews.

I'm thinking of the black culture movements that were part of the increasing reaction to prejudice and discrimination. Black pride and concerns over the black future became justification for anti-intermarriage ideas and campaigns. Do we find ourselves expressing Jewish pride in the same way? And if so, is that ok?

Elisha Aharon

Author: mpfreed (---.proxy.aol.com)
Date: 11-21-01 08:04

Elisha,

It is not a question of prejudice - it is a question of survival. In the matter of intermarriage we do not operate on a level playing field. The Jews are a minority and in the US there are many, many more non-Jews (mostly Christians) which means that intermarriage will inevitably result in a diminution of the number of Jews . How could any objective observer think otherwise ? All the evidence (some of which I have quoted) bears this out. It's easy to label the necessary boundaries that any group, organisation and religion tries to maintain as prejudice - but that is unfair - particularly with regard to Jews. Judaism is not a proselytising religion, and it is not just a mere pleasant platitude for the Talmud to say that the righteous of all peoples have a share in the world to come. Gentiles are not required to become Jews to obtain salvation. Yet, if Judaism as a distinct religion has any meaning it must have rules and regulations which, inter alia, define IN ITS OWN TERMS who can be a member of that religion. That is not prejudice.
Coming back to the micro/macro issue, I can't see anything wrong with wishing intermarrieds one may know (or even be members of one's family) all happiness.
Looked at globally, however, the rate of intermarriage being so high, one cannot help seeing the damage it is causing to the Jewish community demographically.
That's not prejudice - it's a matter of fact.

mpfreed

Author: Ed Case (---.ne.mediaone.net)
Date: 11-21-01 08:15

If you keep harping on the demographic damage that intermarriage does to the Jewish community, it has the consequence -- perhaps something you don't intend -- of discouraging intermarried families who are considering Judaism for their family, or just starting to "put their toe in the water," or who are already on that path, from staying involved.

Author: Bryce (---.mpowercom.net)
Date: 11-21-01 12:39

Elisha wrote:

"Inevitably, they who create complex rules have to live with the complications."

True, but those who break off from the group that has those complex rules, and create simpler rules for themselves, also have to live with brand new complications -- perhaps worse than the original complications.

"As a Jewish male, I want male Jewishness and Jewish influence on kids to be valued as highly as a woman's, so I can't agree with the matrilineal bias."

With that misguided logic, you would insist that both parents be Jewish in order for their kids to be Jewish. -- or neither!

"If a first marriage was J-J-in a Jewish home, and the second J-nonJ-in the same Jewish home, the kids of the second marriage, being raised in the same Jewish home, may not be "as Jewish" as their siblings... depending on the sex of the Jewish parent! Sillyness."

You are calling thousands of Jewish sages, leaders, and teachers throughout the millenia "silly". Now ain't that nice!

Author: mpfreed (---.proxy.aol.com)
Date: 11-21-01 15:20

To Ed Case,

Au contraire. My 'harping on' about the demographic damage that intermarriage is causing to the Jewish community might put the sometimes frosty reception, that some intermarried couples complain of receiving from Jews, in a different light. It might encourage them the more to become Jewishly involved.

Author: Elisha Aharon (---.cpinternet.com)
Date: 11-21-01 15:52

[I wrote] "As a Jewish male, I want male Jewishness and Jewish influence on kids to be valued as highly as a woman's, so I can't agree with the matrilineal bias."

[Bryce replied] With that misguided logic, you would insist that both parents be Jewish in order for their kids to be Jewish. -- or neither!

[to clarify] no, since for now there has to be a rule, I regard patrilineal descent equally with matrilineal descent. Either partner being Jewish would make the kids Jewish too, if raised so. As Reform has it.

[I wrote] "If a first marriage was J-J-in a Jewish home, and the second J-nonJ-in the same Jewish home, the kids of the second marriage, being raised in the same Jewish home, may not be "as Jewish" as their siblings... depending on the sex of the Jewish parent! Sillyness."

[Bryce replied] You are calling thousands of Jewish sages, leaders, and teachers throughout the millenia "silly". Now ain't that nice!

[to clarify] ...no, I never called anyone silly. I said the result is sillyness, and it is... a silly consequence of the matrilineal-only view in an unprecedentedly open society. How would you explain to little Moishe that he has to convert, when his sister does not, though they have the same Jewish father and all still live in the same Jewish house? Daddy's Jewishness doesn't count as much? Silly.

In fact I don't believe in the genetic transmission of Jewishness, period. We're really all Jews-by-choice now, all of us, since we live in a culture where we are not defined by our birth. This is unprecedented in our history, and I expect will result in unprecedented numbers of converts coming in and Jews opting out. I don't fear for Judaism as a result, however. It's a fluid, exciting time to be Jewish!

Judaism will flourish, I believe, because it embodies uniquely beautiful and meaningful answers to the universal questions like "why am I here?", and celebrates all of life with vitality and profoundly meaningful ritual. Not because it is protected or defended against assimilation. Judaism is coming into its own; that's as it should be... perhaps even by Divine design.

...all of which is quite reassuring to non-Jewish parents and in-laws, by the way. The answer to apprehension and misunderstanding is to teach Judaism, in my view. I can't tell you how many Christians have said to me something like, "you know, if I had to choose, I'd probably be Jewish", or something along those lines. I hear it because I converted, and they feel they can talk to me. [no, Jewish is not intrinsically better; but it's Christianity's equal, and better for me].

Having used megabytes here lately, I'll defer to other posters for some time, and relenquish the soap box in favor of reading for a while. Thanks in advance for your thoughts, all. My email is above if anyone does want to correspond.

b'ahavah (in love),

Elisha Aharon

mpfreed

Author: Ed Case (---.reonbroadband.com)
Date: 11-21-01 16:21

Dear mpfreed,
If you really think that by harping on the damage that intermarriage causes to the Jewish community, you are encouraging intermarried couples to become more Jewishly involved -- I think you are terribly misguided. People won't go where they aren't welcomed. It's as simple as that.

Point regarding "salvation"

Author: Charles (---.brookdale.edu)
Date: 11-21-01 17:15

Mpfreed has stated a number of thought-provoking points. However, he wrote something that really tripped a nerve. He wrote "Gentiles are not required to become Jews to obtain salvation". I am not sure if he meant this, but he implies there is a Jewish notion of "obtaining salvation".

The notion that people are born in sin and require "salvation" to gain entry into the World to Come is an idea that is distinctly foreign to Torah Judaism.

Rather, Judaism posits that everybody is born into this world with a clean slate.

If we do mitzvot, as enumerated in the Written and Oral Torahs, we raise our spiritual standing and successfully prepare ourselves for the World to Come.
If, G-d forbid, we sin, then we lower our spiritual standing. However, we can correct these mistakes by doing teshuvah (repentence). This can be done by anyone, anywhere, and at anytime. Obviously, Yom Kippur is an especially opportune time for teshuvah (but one should not wait for it to come to do teshuvah).

You may find this insight into mitzvot helpful:

The reason we exist in a physical world is that the mitzvot (for the most part) are actions performed by the body. When we perform the mitzvot, these actions serve to raise the soul, the spiritual level and awareness of the person and also to effect a "repairing" of the world around us in potentially both a physical and spiritual way. That's why we exist as physical beings rather than as spirits. The spiritual aspect alone cannot improve its standing, but the body works with the spirit to do so.

If you help a poor person with money or food, you are doing chesed (kindness) and this is a mitzvah. But, if you prepare a kosher meal, make the blessing on the bread, eat, and make the blessing after the meal, you have also done a mitzvah. Also, you have taken a rather ordinary, seemingly lifeless, inanimate piece of bread and actually raised its spritual level. How? Before, it was sitting there doing nothing of consequence in this world. Now, it's providing nourishment and energy for you, so that you can go perform more mitzvot. Not only have you done a mitzvah, you have effected a "healing" or "repairing" (a "tikkun" if you prefer) of the world.

Amazing. Most people think "tikkun" means "social action" or "social justice". Yes, but not only. Unfortunately, many mitzvot have been overlooked as being "of no value to this world".

Here's another interesting concept. We do not know the relative value of one mitzvah over another. The Written Torah states rewards for only two specific mitzvot. One is to honor your mother and father (considered one of the hardest commands to fulfill properly) and the other is to shoo away the mother bird before taking her eggs (as opposed to simply reaching under the bird and snatching the eggs). The latter is considered on of the easiest mitzvot to do. The reward for each is the same: long life. The Oral Torah expounds that this refers to a long good life in the World to Come, not this world. In other words, it would seem that from continually fulfilling the easiest to hardest mitzvot, we secure a portion in the World to Come of a higher and higher spiritual level.

One more thing: Doing mitzvot is dependent on both the individual Jew and the Jewish community as a whole (certain mitzvot require the participation of the entire community). They do not require a "savior".

Oh, one last thought: Some ask why are the so many mitzvot obligatory on the Jew (613 of them). One answer: Some you will find easy to do and thus "earn" relatively easy spiritual elevation. Others will be a challenge. But, we learn that you not only get "credit" for the completion of the mitzvot, you also get "credit" for the energy and effort you expend to do the mitzvot.

Author: Bryce (---.mpowercom.net)
Date: 11-21-01 17:33

[Elisha] "As a Jewish male, I want male Jewishness and Jewish influence on kids to be valued as highly as a woman's, so I can't agree with the matrilineal bias."

I'll try again: You are in effect accusing the Orthodox and Conservative branches of not valuing the male influence on children as highly as the woman's. That's odd: one would expect an outsider's gripe of the Orthodox and Conservative branches to be one that doesn't value the woman's influence.

[Elisha] Either partner being Jewish would make the kids Jewish too, **if raised so**. As Reform has it. ... We're really all Jews-by-choice now ... I don't believe in the genetic transmission of Jewishness, period.

That sounds like such a friendly and open attitude, doesn't it. But only if you look at it on the surface. Look deeper. Then you'll see that it is actually cruel. See: /phorum/read.php3?num=69 entry #12.

[Elisha] How would you explain to little Moishe that he has to convert, when his sister does not, though they have the same Jewish father and all still live in the same Jewish house?

I wouldn't say he'd have to convert. Only if he wanted to should he. Moishe would understand, because he'd be raised to respect Jewish law and lawmakers.

[Elish] We're really all Jews-by-choice now, all of us, since we live in a culture where we are not defined by our birth.

We also live in a culture where the majority would rather die than think deeply about things. Since when do you choose to follow the majority? You converted to Judaism, didn't you?

And no, there are many Jews who would rather NOT be Jews. But I'm not willing to write them off -- like you appear to be doing -- and deny them the title "Jew".

[Elisha] Judaism is coming into its own.

Huh? Is that a meaningful statement?

[Elisha] (Judaism) celebrates all of life with vitality and profoundly meaningful ritual. Not because it is protected or defended against assimilation.

And do you think that those who assimilate are likely to take part in that profoundly meaningful ritual?

[Elisha] Jewish (i.e. Judaism) is ... Christianity's equal.

Is that another meaningful statement?

Author: Bryce (---.mpowercom.net)
Date: 11-21-01 17:35

Charles, I suspect Mpfreed simply meant "have a place in the World to Come" when he said "earn salvation".

#142, #145

Author: Ellen (---.as8.nwbl0.wi.voyager.net)
Date: 11-21-01 18:10

Well, I for one am certainly glad to see that Elisha has such deep and abiding respect for us Jewish women. According to him, it's just as good for Jewish men to marry gentile women as Jewish women. Shucks! It's even better! Under his scheme Jewish women are all utterly and totally unnecessary. Oh, I really feel respected by this guy, all right!

Author: mpfreed (---.proxy.aol.com)
Date: 11-21-01 18:54

To Bryce:

You are quite right about the meaning of 'salvation' in my posting, so be reassured Charles. Judaism does not recognise the concept of "original sin".

To Ed Case:

We will just have to disagree about my 'harping on'.

l'hitraot (see you later)

Author: Elisha Aharon (---.cpinternet.com)
Date: 11-21-01 22:20

[Bryce] "I'll try again: You are in effect accusing the Orthodox and Conservative branches of not valuing the male influence on children as highly as the woman's... "

[Elisha again] Very nice, you got it (but in this limited context only).
-------------------------------------------
the balance of material in Bryce's last post is not substantive, but argumentative or insulting, and since the purpose of the site is substantive and inclusive discussion, not personal argument, I'll simply end my contribution on that note of being understood.

I really wish posters would in general try to edit their comments, and try to be constructive rather than "win" and being disrespectful. It would help. I'm sure there are many who are avoiding saying anything because of this unfortunate attitude. For every one who has emailed me personally, there must be 10 others who are silent.

l'hitraot,

Elisha Aharon

Author: Bryce (---.proxy.aol.com)
Date: 11-21-01 23:57

What some people call a good argument, others call "argumentative".

Reassurance

Author: Charles (---.brookdale.edu)
Date: 11-22-01 13:37

I'm glad to hear that mpfreed's comment on "salvation" was a typo. I didn't want readers to have the incorrect impression that Judaism posits the need to be "saved" in order to obtain a place in the World to Come.

a few words

Author: Rose (---.cvx38-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net)
Date: 11-25-01 13:44

Ellen, respectfully, I have to say that the ire in your comments is quite apparent and very unfortunate. Ed Case is quite right in saying that your attitudes do nothing to help Jewish people- and their familes- many of whom are not Jewish by birth. If you would limit Judaism only to halachically defined blood rules or to strict Conservative or Orthodox practice as litmus test to who is really Jewish, then nearly half of all Jews in the US would not really be Jews. Is that what you want? Do you really understand the mission of interfaith community/families? It is not to take away your sons or whatever it is you fear.

Your ire against those who might not be as strictly observant in their practice of Judaism as you or even more emotionally, who might marry in and steal away your Jewish men- is so undgmental and hysterical in tone. The VAST MAJORITY of non-Jewish women who marry Jewish men raise the children Jewish. Whether they observe all the mitsvot or speak Hebrew or whether they just go to high holy day services, it's not up to you to define what being Jewish is. But you should know that the reality you suggest -- of shiksas stealing away Jewish men and of judaism being diulted is just not true if you look at the spectrum of jewish identity and expression. And more importantly, if you examine it from the woman's persepctive-- non-jewish woman involved with jewish men are always the ones that have to change their identities- and the focus of this site should be to support and encourage a more BALANCED support and inclusiveness for those women- and for men who marry in. Not the kind of judgmental ire you spew.

--------------------------------
Ellen
Date: 08-30-2000 22:13

Ellen's position is that Ed Case should stop popping up with all of these "It's so reprehensible that anyone could believe in anything so false and narrowminded as Conservative or Orthodox Judaism instead of being benign and tolerant like us Reform Jews" statements. Beyond that, Ellen has nothing against people with Jewish fathers and gentile mothers. Some of Ellen's favorite people have Jewish fathers and gentile mothers. However, Ellen has seen that many of these people learn very little about how to live a Jewish life. They don't generally study Torah on any sort of mature level and have little commitment to increasing their observance of mitsvot. Should we allow these people to grow up thinking a diluted holidays-and-life-cycle-occasions-only Judaism is just as legitimate and authentic as twenty-four hour seven day halachic Judaism? I think we might ultimately do more damage to the Jewish people if we compromise what we have with something watered-down, lukewarm, and half-baked. We would do better to encourage serious conversion. If we open the floodgates to millions of new people who were sired by Jewish men but raised by women who don't lead actively Jewish lives, we might all get washed away in the flood.

Sadly Mistaken

Author: Benjamin (---.rasserver.net)
Date: 11-26-01 10:56

I feel the need to post only because Rose's last post contains so much information that is blatantly incorrect.

Rose says (to Ellen): "If you would limit Judaism only to halachically defined blood rules or to strict Conservative or Orthodox practice as litmus test to who is really Jewish, then nearly half of all Jews in the US would not really be Jews."

This is simply an incorrect statement. Statistically, it could not be true, because even if half of all "Jewish" marriages involve a non-Jewish partner, that does not (and could not) mean that half involve a non-Jewish mother. And since only about a quarter of all interfaith families are bringing up their kids as Jews, and roughly half of them (and probably less-see below) involve a non-Jewish mother, we are talking about a pretty small percentage of children (out of the total Jewish population) who have non-Jewish mothers and are raising their children as Jews.

Rose says: "The VAST MAJORITY of non-Jewish women who marry Jewish men raise the children Jewish."

Again, this is blatantly incorrect. If only a quarter of all interfaith families are raising their kids as Jews, then "the vast majority" of non-Jewish women in all interfaith marriages clearly are not raising their kids of Jews. And more important, according to most recent studies, Jewish women in interfaith marriages are much more likely than Jewish men in interfaith marriages to raise their children exclusively as Jews. If this is true, then it would follow that it is the non-Jewish men in those marriages who are raising the kids as Jews, and not the non-Jewish women who are married to Jewish men who are not raising their kids Jewish.

Finally, Rose says (to Ellen): "it's not up to you to define what being Jewish is." This is a very important statement and really the heart of the matter. It is not up to anyone individually to define what being Jewish is. Not me. Not you. Not Ed Case. Not Elisha Aharon. Not MPFreed. Not the Reform Rabbis who voted in patrilineal descent less than 20 years ago. Not for that matter, any one Orthodox Rabbi.

Rather, we have the Torah and thousands of years of our Sages' interpretation of the Torah that determine what Judaism is. It is true that Judaism is fluid in the sense that we are continually applying Jewish principles to new situations as they arise in modern life. But the principles themselves are timeless. When people change the underlying principles, they are not determining for themselve what "it" (Judaism) is. "It" is no longer Judaism. "It" is the individual's own thing. To give an extreme example of this, Jews for Jesus say they are practicing Judaism. They could easily say (and they do) that "it is not up to you to define what being Jewish is." Clearly however, they are not practicing Judaism. They are practicing their own thing because they have changed the underlying principles. So it's fine to say you want to reshape Judaism to meet your own individual situation. And if the underlying principles stay the same, fine. If they don't, then it's no longer Judaism. It's the creation of the individual.

Author: mpfreed (---.proxy.aol.com)
Date: 11-26-01 18:02

Benjamin:

I totally agree with your analysis, statistics and sentiments.

mpfreed

Author: Benjamin (---.nas35.somerville1.ma.us.da.qwest.ne)
Date: 11-27-01 21:30

To mpfreed:

Thank you for your kind words.

Benjamin

test

Author: IFF editor (---.ne.mediaone.net)
Date: 12-13-01 15:54

This posting is a test of software.

software test

Author: Ronnie Friedland (---.proxy.aol.com)
Date: 02-14-02 10:42

ignore posting

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