How do I get my jewish boyfriend to share his religion with me?

[Disa]

I have a religious christian upbringing, but with open liberal parents. I have over the years decided more and more not to take part of christian activities and I never go to church. My parents are still very religious, but never pressured me to attend religious events.

I still have a strong faith, and christian values are very important to me. Sometimes I wish I had more of a religious identity and that it would be good for me to express my religious side more. But I often dont feel comfortable at christian events. Critical thinking and free debate is important to me.


My boyfriend is jewish. Not a very religious one, but still a jew. Over the years I have understood more and more how his jewish identity in a complex way means alot to him in a way that he struggles to describe.

Both our families accept our relationship, that is not an issue. I have often joined them at jewish holidays, and dont find it any different really to christian ones. I just embrace it, it facinates me. To be honest, judaism has always facinated me.

To me, the difference between both the religions is very little. We share the same values and the same G-d, that means everything to me.

What I find it hard to accept is the not religious bit. For example I how zionism and being jewish goes hand in hand. I dont at all support war of any kind, and wish that Israel and Palestina would declare peace, even if it means that the jews lose their country. I cant even discuss this with my boyfriend, to him Israel belongs to the jewish people end of discussion.

At http://www.jatonyc.org/ I read following

Judaism is a cultural and religious identity, which must not be equated with Zionism, a political movement. Criticism of the state of Israel, its policies, or the idea of a Jewish state does not by itself constitute anti-Semitism. Dismissing critics of Israel or of Zionism as "anti-Semitic" is a means of stifling debate and masking the impact of the occupation.

That is exactly my opinion.


I would not like to convert to judaism, but I am willing to bring our future children up as jews. This is completely my own idea. I believe it is good to have a cultural and religious identety and for a family to be united. And if we will start a family I think it is easier for me to emrace judaism, which I am happy to do.

That is, if my jewish boyfriend will start opening up to me about his identity, exactly what it means to him and share it with me. He is shocked every time I mention something I know about judaism (a lot I just know from my christian upbringing, we even used to sing jewish songs in church). He is like -you are not a jew you wouldnt know.

It is just very personal to him, he as many other guys finds it hard to put words on feelings especially when it comes to religion. It is a sensitive subject.


But we love each other deeply, we have been together for many years (through ups and downs) and just moved in together.

How do I get him to start talking about this? I dont want to force it on him.

[Lori]

Hi,
I can fully relate to you.  I was raised catholic.  I taught CCD.  I loved learning.  Then my home church was a bit strict on some issues that I could not agree with and I fell out of religion.  I tried picking it back up again in College but it wasn't the right religion for me.  I always felt a strong pull to Judaism - the traditions, culture and value (reform not orthodox).  I tell you this as background.  
Four years ago, I met my now boyfriend.  We dated, I asked "Will your mom care if you date a non jew?" he said no.  We continued dating.  We fell in love.  We moved in together.  We bought a house just a few months ago.  As we became more serious, I asked about Judaism.  First he said it wasn't a deal breaker.  I pushed, what about marriage? what about kids? Eventually he said his Mom would like a ceremony in a temple - I did research, that requires conversion.  I mention this.  I ask to discuss it, to understand the importance, to figure it out.  Occassionally it becomes a fight bc I HATE that I am the one who must bring it up.  We find an Intro to Judaism course run by Interfaith Family.  I go alone, his new job does not allow for the class in his schedule.  Sometimes I resent this.  He does all the homework with me (minus the hebrew lesson) and he attends the Shabbat services/pot luck dinner and the bat mitvah.  I meet great people in class.  Not everyone is there to convert.  Many are jewish by birth but know less than I.  The Rabbi is welcoming and not pushy.  We meet for dinner once - he listens to my concerns.  I love my boyfriend.  We both want to get married and have children.  I want the children to have some religious upbringing because I think its good to know about the bible (its education) and its good for reinforcing values plus I want the family traditions.  I could do that with catholocism but I still have issue with some of their stringent beliefs.  I feel more comfortable with reform judaism.  But I don't want to convert just to make it easier, I want it to be right. I want to understand my boyfriend's view.  I continue to push him.. he continues to say he loves me, its not a deal breaker, if I choose to convert thats great but not necessary.  I still don't understand why its important to him.  I talk to the Rabbi; he tells me that regardless of interfaith or both Jewish, most families have one person who leads the effort with religion and tradition.  But Judaism is not the religion that I was born into, so can I be the one to lead? The Rabbi tells me that I can... IF I choose to do so.
A few months go by... its Rosh Hashanah, I remind my boyfriend that we should do something together.  We don't.  I don't know what we were suppose to do but I could have done the research, I have the books... however I wanted him to do it, to show its important.  Yom Kippur came and went... he did not do anything special.  Last year, and every year before, he has fasted but this year I think he was working insane and the weeks have been a blur - regardless, I was made that he didn't do anything with me to recognize the high holidays.
I push again... my boyfriend knows that I'm upset and he sends me this email:

"Contrary to what you think, I would never expect you to convert just because and I don’t want you to convert because I didn’t give you an option and I also don’t want you to convert because you think that it’s the only thing that will make me happy.  I want you to be happy.
I don’t assume that you’ll just convert because you are tired of talking about it.  How important is it to me? It’s important only to the extent that it would make us a single unit.  I do not expect that it would change the holidays you like to spend with your family or your views.  It’s part of who I am, and although my family doesn’t go to the temple on a regular basis it’s simply because in Russia we didn’t have the ability to do it because religious freedoms did not exist – it was an atheist country.  When I have kids, I’d like to start a tradition of going for high holidays / other times.  It is not something that I need for myself at this point (maybe at some point in my life I will need it), but I think that it is something that builds good values in children."

So you see, he and I feel very much the same about the traditions and the children.  But where I'm ready to start religious efforts now, he feels its something to start upon having children.  And he is different than some Jewish ppl in that he did grow up in Russia and had to recognize his religion at home.  But even before I received this email, the Rabbi told me back in June that many men don't feel the need to attend temple or fully observe their religion until they have children but yet still feel very strongly connected to their faith.

I cannot tell you what to do.  No one else on these boards can, or should, tell you what to do.  I can tell you that you are not alone and that no matter what you decide, you can make it work. If you love each other and you communicate clearly and openly, continuously, you can figure out what works for you.  And if you don't want to convert, but are willing to raise your children jewish, you can participate in some fashion at a reform temple. And maybe later, you'll want to convert, and maybe you won't.  

I think the big things to figure out are:

Is he orthodox? I'm guessing not, but if so, you are in a different bracket of decisions.

Are you willing to raise your children jewish? If not, what are his thoughts? What might you deal with in regards to his family's opinions.

If you are willing to raise the kids jewish. is he willing to attend a reform temple where you can be more involved without converting?

How would your family feel about you converting or just raising your kids jewish?

How will your boyfriend feel if you don't want to give up Christmas as a family tradition, not as a religious observation?

Maybe you could take the Intro to Judaism course in your area to learn more.

I wish you the best of luck and if you find the key to making this decision, please share it with the rest of us.

[Kohenet Ketzirah]

You may not be able to get him to share his religion with you.  You say he is not very religious -- that could really be the main issue.  Part of what you also might be experiencing is the differences between different denominations.  Saying "Jewish" is like saying "Christian."  There a lot of flavors. That one word will tell you certain things about a persons religious identity, but also leaves out a lot. Both Catholics and Mormons consider themselves Christian, but there are a world of differences between them.

You might want to start by exploring what the particular denomination he was raised in believes.  He may not ascribe to all of it, but it will help acclimate you.  If you are seriously interested in learning more about Judaism, you might want to take a class.  There are often interfaith classes at JCCs or reform synagogues.  See if he's willing to do this with you.  It might be interesting for both of you.  You also have to decide if you are okay with him NOT sharing this with you.  He really just may not want to or have the framework to do so.

[Rebecca]

Your boyfriend, like most secular Jewish men, sounds conflicted about Judaism.  The fact that he's in a serious relationship with a non-Jew means that Judaism is not really important to him.  It's only when the subject of children is brought up that he wants to be more observant.
You should bring up your children in culture and your family's religious beliefs,if you still believe them.  He should bring up them up in his culture and religion and in the end your children will choose the path they feel more comfortable in.  
I don't think that a non-Jew can bring up a child Jewish or a Jew bring up a child as a Chrsitian/etc.  The children will know that you are not sincere and that will have adverse effects.  Bring up your children up in traditions and don't let anyone pressure you to convert or negate your background.  If your boyfriend wanted a Jewish wife or children he should have dated Jewish women.  You are not to blame for his confusion and don't let him make you feel bad about your culture and beliefs.  Your children deserve to know about their heritage on both sides of their families.  Good luck to you!

[Debbie B.]

I disagree with Rebecca and know a number of counter-examples to her assertions.

"The fact that he's in a serious relationship with a non-Jew means that Judaism is not really important to him."
This is a commonly held, but not necessarily correct, belief. Unfortunately, I believe it is the basis for many of the harsh and counter-productive policies that the Conservative movement had toward intermarried Jews in the past. There are many examples on this web site of very committed Jews who surprised themselves by finding a life partner who was not Jewish. This recent featured story is just one example: www.interfaithfamily.com/life_cycle/weddings/Uncompromising_Compromises.shtml

I myself was "intermarried" for over 20 years even though Judaism was extremely important both to my Jewish husband and even to me. Just because I wasn't Jewish when we got married didn't mean that I wasn't still interested in Judaism. I had attended synagogue services every week for three years before we got married.  My husband would not have married me if I had been antagonistic to Judaism.

"I don't think that a non-Jew can bring up a child Jewish or a Jew bring up a child as a Chrsitian/etc.  The children will know that you are not sincere and that will have adverse effects. "
Again, you can find many examples on this website that show that the above is not necessarily true. It is possible for people to *want* to bring up their children as Jews even if they are not Jewish themselves. I know of several interfaith families with children with a stronger Jewish identity than many children with two Jewish parents. This is true even in cases where the non-Jewish parent is firm in their own non-Jewish religion (unlike my situation in which my "faith" was Jewish even if I had not yet converted). The fact is that these interfaith families have thought harder about and worked harder to give their children a Jewish upbringing and education than some families with two Jewish parents who are not willing to put the effort (and money) into it.

" Your children deserve to know about their heritage on both sides of their families."
This is not incompatible with raising the children in one religion. I believe that ALL children should be taught about and taught to have respect for other religions. In the extremely multi-cultural community in which I live, I am happy that my children's public schools teach the kids about many different religions. You don't have to practice a religion yourself to know about it and respect it. I actually feel that it can be easier to understand and respect other religions if you have a firm and definite religious identity of your own. This is one reason that I believe it is better to raise children in a single religion rather than with a little bit of two religions.

[Rebecca]

Debbie, I absolutely stand by my statements.  Judaism might have not been important to you husband when he met you, but it obviously became more important as the relationship became more serious.  It was obviously your choice to convert but many non-Jewish women feel pressured to convert by their  fiances, husbands.  This is ridicoulous.  When a person dates outside their faith they don't have any right to pressure their partner to change their belief systems.
 
It's common sense that a person cannot sincerely raise children in a different faith of their own.  It's not possible, whether the faith is Jewish, Christian, or Muslim.  Judaism is also a culture, which is not possible to fully understand , just like any other culture, unless you were raised in it.    I've never met a person from a interfaith family have a stronger Jewish identity than a person from a non-observant secular Jewish family. I'm not saying that the former can't be Jewish.  It's just  easier to have a strong religious identity when both parents are of the same faith.

I agree that children should be brought up in one religion, but when both parents share the same faith.  Otherwise a child should be brought up in both religions.  Intermarriage is made up of compromises and that's the only fair solution.

[InterfaithFamily Administrator]

Rebecca,

I disagree with your post but specifically wanted to comment on your statement, "I've never met a person from a interfaith family have a stronger Jewish identity than a person from a non-observant secular Jewish family."

Since I started working as the Network Director at InterfaithFamily.com I have met countless professional Jews and read countless narratives from individuals who have a non Jewish parent or are Jews by choice who have a incredibly strong Jewish identity.  Not only are they community builders and teachers, they are supporters of Israel and have dedicated their life to the Jewish community.

I also have many Jewish friends, with two Jewish parents who barely identify as Jews and do not support Israel.

Rebecca, I would suggest that you join the InterfaithFamily.com Network and meet some of these wonderful members of the community.

To join:  www.interfaithfamily.com/join

Kol tov,

Robin Schwartz
Network Director
InterfaithFamily.com

[Debbie B.]

Rebecca,

What if I told you about a 20-something Jewish man who attended synagogue every Shabbat morning and for all holidays, not just the "High holidays".  Who celebrated his upcoming marriage with an "aufruf" in which he learned and chanted a full Torah portion at synagogue. Who, as a newlywed, designed and built his own sukkah and hosted and led a Passover seder for 20 friends, mostly Jews and mostly graduate students and people without family in the area who otherwise would not have had a home seder to attend. Who lit candles every Friday night. Then he did a 2-year post-doc at the Weizmann Institute in Israel were he loved being immersed in Judaism, made his own challah from scratch every Friday, became passably fluent in Hebrew, and enjoyed home hospitality and attending synagogue with both Masorti and Orthodox friends. Would you say that the man was "not interested in Judaism"?

If I further added that he was married to a woman who participated in the above activities, but was not Jewish, would you say that the one fact negated all the rest? If so, then you have a very narrow and strange definition of "interested in Judaism". The above is a fair description of my husband in the early years of our marriage. I can assure you that he was no less interested in Judaism then than now.

My subsequent conversion to Judaism did not represent an increase in either my husband's or my own interest in Judaism. It was something that *I* wanted to do for myself, not for him, and I had always planned to convert since we gotten married.

But my own situation is not the usual "interfaith" marriage. So let me describe a man I know because his children attended the same Hebrew school as mine. He prays with an Orthodox morning minyan *every* weekday. He attends Shabbat services at the C synagogue where his children attend Hebrew school when there are special school programs. I think for other Shabbat morning services he may attend local Orthodox services because I know he has mentioned attending Orthodox Shabbat afternoon services. He is active in fund-raising for numerous Jewish causes and once spear-headed a huge "Save our J" campaign when the Jewish Federation was thinking of shutting down our local JCC branch. Doesn't this man sound like a committed Jew? But another aspect of his life is that his wife proudly displays her Christianity by wearing a cross on a necklace. Although his wife usually drives the kids to weekday Hebrew school classes, he usually drives them to Sunday morning classes to enable his wife to attend church services.

The children of both my own family and the one described below were more serious students in Hebrew school than most of the other children with two Jewish parents. These kids from "intermarried" families have learned about Jewish ritual from participation at home (unlike some of the other kids) and have developed a love of Judaism. Some of the other kids with two Jewish parents have picked up on their parents  expectation that they will learn to be Jews simply by going to Hebrew school even if they do nothing Jewish at home. Needless to say, those kids did not care about learning anything in Hebrew school.

Examples of the converse are the people I know with two Jewish parents who do not even consider themselves to be Jewish any more. These people were not brought up with strong Jewish identities. A college roommate of mine does not observe any Jewish ritual at all anymore: she does not attend synagogue even for High Holidays and does not attend a seder for Passover. Neither her first nor current husband are Jewish. She is trying to get pregnant and if she does have children, she will certainly not raise them as Jews.

I know other women with two Jewish parents who converted to Unitarianism and to a Protestant denomination. In all these cases, their families were not very observant or interested in Judaism. One of these women was surprised and hurt when her parents were upset when she converted to Christianity in her late teens. She felt that they had shown so little interest in Judaism that it was unfair of them to protest when she found something else to fulfill her spiritual needs.

So, Rebecca (if you have bothered to read my very long post), you can disbelieve me or have your own definitions of "interested in Judaism", but you should also consider that just because you haven't met people like I describe doesn't mean that they don't exist.

[Rebecca]

I have to go by my personal experiences and I believe I'm right.  I agree that some children from interfaith families can have strong Jewish identities but that doesn't take away the fact that the majority don't.  I don't blame them because they also need to show respect for both sides of their heritage.  Of course there are people with two Jewish parents who don't care about being Jewish but the majority do care and many become more observant as they get older.  I've seen it happen in my etended family.

Thanks for the invitation to join Interfaith Family group, Ruth, but both of my parents are Jewish.  If I do eventually marry a non-Jewish man I would consider it.  I have dated  couple of non-Jews but it never got serious.  I'm young so I don't know what will happen in the future.  My parents come two very different Jewish backgrounds, secular and ultra-Orthodox, but I would consider intermarriage.  I know my mother and many of my relatives would be against it but it would ultimely be my decision. 

It was interesting to read about Debbie's husband but it still doesn't change my mind.  I do find it odd that a very observant Jew, Christian or Muslim for that matter, would date someone from another faith.  I have Christian and Muslims friends that agree with me.  It worked out for you and your husband but how about if you didn't want to convert?   

As far your friend whose a committed Jew but has a devout Christian wife,  I think it's great that the children are learning about their Jewish heritage but they should also learn about their Christian heritage.  If these children are being brought only as Jews than they will definately be confused. 


I do respect everyone's opinion here even though I might not agree.  I hope that everyone feels the same way about my opinions.

[Debbie B.]

Rebecca,

You are right that many, maybe even most, children from interfaith families don't have strong Jewish identities. Even though I gave counter-examples, I know lots of those families too. But one of the reasons that I support this web site is that I think that knowing that it is possible to raise Jewish kids in interfaith families may inspire those who have the interest and will to try rather than take as a given that it is "impossible". If you concede that although not typical and more difficult it is *possible* to raise Jewish children, then we have reached agreement.

You might be surprised to learn that I don't advocate intermarriage.  I wrote an article on this web site expressing worries about whether my daughter understands the issues of interdating: "Do As I Say, Not As I Do".

From my own experience and what I''ve read about other observant Jews dating and marrying non-Jews, the person they marry is often the first non-Jew they ever dated because they had not intended to get involved with a non-Jew. The Orthodox woman who married a Norwegian and wrote a recent article writes about trying to avoid being around the man that she would marry because she didn't want to get involved with him. My husband and I got to know each other by chatting before and after a college class, not by immediately dating. We both found a best friend and soulmate that we could talk with about anything. But we applied to all different grad schools except the one that we both ended up going to and we didn't marry for more than 6 years after we started dating, in part because we were a little hesitant to get into an intermarriage.

I'm pretty sure that my husband would not have wanted to marry me if I had not wanted to raise our children as Jews. And what if I did not convert myself? Well, that was the situation for almost 22 years because I finally converted less than a year ago. It surprised me to learn that my husband did not know that I always expected to convert eventually and that it would have been OK with him if I had never converted. I thought he was just patient; in fact, he was truly fully accepting of whoever I was. On the other hand, I have attended synagogue regularly since 3 years before we married and lived Jewishly, so our household was always unified in practice. Now that I'm asserting my religious needs he has had to accommodate my making our kitchen strictly kosher and my more restrictive requirements for eating out, which affects him more than my previous non-Jewish status.

As for the children of the committed Jew with the Christian wife: I'm sure that they know about their mother's religion even if it isn't the one they identify with. That's the mode that I feel is usually best for kids in interfaith families: they should feel themselves as *belonging* to ONE religion, but *learn* about the other one, and respect the commitment of the parent to the other religion. Similarly, although I identify strongly as a Jew, I highly respect my brother-in-law's strong Catholic beliefs and am happy that my nephew and sibling-to-be will be brought up as a Catholics, since my sister had almost no religious education: because she is quite a bit younger than I am, she even missed the one year of Presbyterian Sunday school that I experienced. I think that asking kids to believe contradictory things from two religions at the same time is more likely to cause confusion.

I think I understand your opinions and doubts, Rebecca. Truthfully, many people in interfaith families did not expect to ever be in such a situation and we often surprise ourselves with unexpected reactions and feelings. That's certainly one reason why I have been drawn to this web site: because it reassures me that these situations happen to other people too and I and my family are not some kind of "freaks".

[Rebecca]

Thanks Debbie for your insightful comments.  It seems to me that you had a Jewish soul before you met your husband and that is why he married you.  I'm sorry if I assumed things that were incorrect about your relationship.  You have a beautiful Jewish family and I congratulate you for that. 

Both of my parents are Jewish but they come from vastly different backgrounds as do both sides of my extended family.  My mother, grandmother, and great-grandmother are very much against intermarriage.  I've hid from them the couple of non-Jewish boyfriends that I've had.  My father's side of the family does have intermarriages so I've seen cases of every kind, negative and positive.  I came to this site because I might intermarry myself one day.  I don't know how I can hide that from my mother but that's another story.  It would definately be easier to marry a Jew but I'm not really observant so I feel like a hypocrite if I only dated Jews.

I'm not for or against intermarriage.  I was just pointing out that children with parents of one religion usually have stronger identities than parents with different religions, and that it's difficult for non-Jewish mothers to raise Jewish children and vice-versa. I strongly believe that children in interfaith families should be brought up in the two faiths.  I plan to do that if I marry a non-Jew and will need resources like IFF to help me.  Lol!

[3jf]

As an orthodox Jew, the facts are that for your boyfriend to share Judaism with you would mean he tells you that if he were to embrace his religion because of you, he would not be able to be with you anymore.  It is against our religion to date people outside our faith. That is not to say we have something against people outside the Jewish faith, but just that it is against our beliefs to become involved with a non-Jew.

[Sonia]

Hello,

I am a very religious Catholic, i have been raised Catholic all my life by my very religious mother. I am dating this non-practicing Jew  that i met and now we have been dating for 2 years and we are engaged. He knows that I'm really religious, I told him i wanted to raise my children Catholic. His family put him in a school to learn about Judaism but his family doesn't practice so he doesn't practice either. He has his own views on life that has nothing to do with Judaism, all he does is have dinners for holidays and that's all. When I told him about religion, and that i wanted my kids to learn to be Catholic he wanted his kids to be Jewish. I told him i do not agree. Later on in time he eventually  agreed with it kids being Catholic. Then months later is had changed his mind and said he wanted to teach the children about both but not perform any Catholic rituals only Jewish ones. I told him I'm not Jewish, and that i would like to teach them both that's fine, but it wouldn't be fair to do your Jewish rituals and not Catholic ones. We talked about it more and he wants his kids to not be religious because he isn't. I don't want to deny my children from learning about God. He doesn't believe in anything, yet he wants them to learn about Judaism because he had to...then end up following his ways after they learn about it. I'm willing to teach both, but i want them to follow Catholic Traditions. I really don't know what options i have to come up with a decision. I want my kids to know about God and Jesus, He wants nothing to do with God and Jesus. Please do you have any advice for me on this situation. I really do love him, but I don't know what do do.
Thank You,

Sonia

[Regina]

Sonia,

this will be painful for the both of you, but it doesn't seem like he is the right guy for you. Most Jews, even non-religious ones have a visceral reaction regarding Christian beliefs. It is not that they necessarily have anything against Jesus, they probably don't even know much about him, but in history Jews have suffered a lot from people who persecuted them in the name of Chrisitanity. So, even those of us who didn't have a regligious upbringing would have an almost instinctual reaction against having a cross in the home and certainly against marrying in front of one. Also, even those of us who are non-religious and are not sure of who and what G-d is pretty firmly believe that Jesus wasn't G-d. So, if your bf is like that, he will have a serious problem if you choose to teach your children that Jesus is G-d (which you certainly have every right to do). If you have a serious discussion with your bf about how you envision your future life, it should become pretty clear that your world views are pretty incompatible despite the fact that your mutual love and feeling are in fact very real.